60 replies to this topic

[Ozonewolf]

Right, no offense but from a foriegners perspective, 5000< deaths(half of which weren't american) vs 655'555 deaths (mostly civillians)

[Powerrrr]

Definitely the military contractors.

[iargue]

Right, no offense but from a foriegners perspective, 5000< deaths(half of which weren't american) vs 655'555 deaths (mostly civillians)

OH NOES. PEOPLE DIED IN WAR.

Thats never happened before.

And no. The majority of deaths were military forces. And they died because we kicked their ass. Only half the forces we lost were due to suicide bombings.

[Ozonewolf]

I was talking about 9/11 with the 5000 figure.

[Faval]

America is a clear loser from the outcome. We've sacrificed a lot of freedom just to be more secure such as with the Patriot act. The military contractors are probably the biggest winners out of all this.

People love to blame us for wars, and how uncaring we are...

Yep, it seems to be a fad or something. Hating America is cool or something like that. Some people in other countries just don't appreciate having America meddle with what's going on, more than likely though, there's also propaganda manipulating what they know though.

Though on the other hand...America/Western Europe does meddle too much with the middle east in most cases such as with installing Saddam as a leader and when they flushed out the old government in Somali for a new puppet government.

Technically what America is doing isn't really a bad thing. Converting foreign countries to democracies rather than dictatorships and what not will generally make the world a somewhat safer place. The only problem is, America is doing it at the expense of it's own pocket...the rest of the world gets the better end of the stick.

Edited by Faval, 13 September 2010 - 07:54 AM.

[flashraven]

Being the leading superpower certainly has its disadvantages too. Military Contractors' got the last laugh, much to everyone's dismay.

[luvsmyncis]

This country has become a nation of fearful hatemongers who gives the government a blank check to do whatever they want as long as they keep the scary brown people away. 

All kinds of brown people.

Converting foreign countries to democracies rather than dictatorships and what not will generally make the world a somewhat safer place. The only problem is, America is doing it at the expense of it's own pocket...the rest of the world gets the better end of the stick.

Also a problem: you can't help people who are unwilling to help themselves. 

[Jake]

The American 'combat' mission in Iraq has ended, currently their army and police are now just being trained, also in Afghanistan obviously. To be honest I could give two shits less about training their people, and so do many other people. However this belief contradicts itself in the form of financial and food support etc. It's not like aid always goes towards who they are intended for.

http://www.reuters.c...E67S1OZ20100829

The most recent example I can think of.

War isn't so bad, helps keep population more balanced and gives out jobs while balancing an economy - the positive side of it anyways. No one has/is going to win this war, wasted money and such while the country becomes more corrupt.

[Frizzle]

After 9 years, it seems to me that religious extremists have successfully accomplished what they wanted in the first place. For the price of $500,000₁ they've spent, we've spent $3,000,000,000₂ on two wars that have produced nothing but debt. For 2,900 lives in the WTC, we've sent 5,696₃ more men and women to their deaths. We've trampled on human rights with illegal wiretapping and prison abuse scandals₄₅. This country has become a nation of fearful hatemongers who gives the government a blank check to do whatever they want as long as they keep the scary brown people away. This recent "Mosque" debate has shown that Americans are stupid enough to turn on each other rather than focus on shit that matters. If Bin Laden is still alive, he's probably in a cave somewhere laughing his ass off at the collateral damage.

1. You claim you've spent over $3 Trillion, yet don't take into account the economics affects of Arms production and supply, putting hundreds of thousands of people into jobs, in a tough economic climate and helping America stay above the drainline.

2. Yes, people die in wars. Generally that's what happens in a war, but how many times has relevant intel came from the wars into potential terrorist attacks. Also, the security of Iraq and Afghanistan as an ally in the middle east will put those peoples deaths into perspective.

3.Human rights? Funny, you Americans really need to stop bitching. The UK regularly wiretaps peoples computers, homes, phones etc.. and if it's not a human right. Infact a human right is a social construction and therefore can be changed and manipulated. You also cannot show any correlation between the war in Iraq and human right issues in the US. Want to complain about human rights? Jump on plane to Cambodia, Iran, China, Korea..

4. America has always been a country of scaremongering cowards that throw money at everything. Nothing has changed recently.

5. Don't build a mosque on a practical memorial which was attacked by Islamic fundamentalists. Americans don't have common sense, obviously.

Really well written post Scot

Sucks that practically no one will read it

That's because it wasn't a well written post.

Being the leading superpower certainly has its disadvantages too. Military Contractors' got the last laugh, much to everyone's dismay.

Superpower is a strong word. I wouldn't call a country that is debt, has little faith in it's government, in the middle of political unrest, people under the poverty line generally being the most hated country in the world is not exactly a superpower. A true superpower would be like...invisibilty of some shit.

[Faval]

Superpower is a strong word. I wouldn't call a country that is debt, has little faith in it's government, in the middle of political unrest, people under the poverty line generally being the most hated country in the world is not exactly a superpower. A true superpower would be like...invisibilty of some shit.

The term for it isn't that wrong but probably more like world power. I agree though, America seems to be declining but it's not like there are a lot of other super/world power countries out there. Well, America still has a lot of diplomatic strength since it still carries enough nukes to blow the world up several times over and nuclear/wmds talk is all the rage.

[Frizzle]

The term for it isn't that wrong but probably more like world power. I agree though, America seems to be declining but it's not like there are a lot of other super/world power countries out there. Well, America still has a lot of diplomatic strength since it still carries enough nukes to blow the world up several times over and nuclear/wmds talk is all the rage.

I'm sure China, Iran, Korea, Russia, India, Pakistan, Israel, Saudi Arabi and every other Western country in the world have something to say to that.

[Faval]

I'm sure China, Iran, Korea, Russia, India, Pakistan, Israel, Saudi Arabi and every other Western country in the world have something to say to that.

Yeah, everyone does, hence Russia was/is giving the US beef about their Missile defense system. Who can blame them though...

But yeah that's why everyone wants to build a nuke so they have some diplomatic sway, just look at N.Korea.

Edited by Faval, 14 September 2010 - 07:17 AM.

[Mr. Hobo]

That's because it wasn't a well written post.

I disagree

That money spent giving people in arms production/supply could have been spent in the form of tax cuts to businesses, directly spent by the government or invested all giving people more jobs

I don't think it has bought any real security. I imagine as more and more troops pull out, the Taliban will grow and if Iran get's the chance, it'll get Iraq under it's thumb

Human rights? Funny, you Americans really need to stop bitching. The UK regularly wiretaps peoples computers, homes, phones etc.. and if it's not a human right. Infact a human right is a social construction and therefore can be changed and manipulated. You also cannot show any correlation between the war in Iraq and human right issues in the US. Want to complain about human rights? Jump on plane to Cambodia, Iran, China, Korea..

So basically no complaints about human rights being degraded until they reach the point that they are on par with Combodia, Iran or China?

[Volition]

people in middle east probably think that the americans are the terrorist by now. http://www.guardian....vilians-fingers

but the people who had the last laugh were Titan, Blackwater, Raytheon, and Lockheed Martin

[Noitidart]

people in middle east probably think that the americans are the terrorist by now. http://www.guardian....vilians-fingers

but the people who had the last laugh were Titan, Blackwater, Raytheon, and Lockheed Martin

Wow that is horrible. I read the article on that kill team. That's so sick.

Yeah net I can't name all the countries but I heard the same thing. No one won a war in Afghanistan.

[redlion]

The term for it isn't that wrong but probably more like world power. I agree though, America seems to be declining but it's not like there are a lot of other super/world power countries out there. Well, America still has a lot of diplomatic strength since it still carries enough nukes to blow the world up several times over and nuclear/wmds talk is all the rage.

You're mixing up two sources of strength. We have hard power, true. More nukes than the rest of the world combined. Or thereabouts.

But we also have soft power (diplomatic power) because we have embassies in most foreign countries and good working relations with those countries, including trade agreements, standards organizations, and agreements on the exercise of political power.

Mixing those up has the unfortunate side effect of making people forget about everything but the nukes.

[Mr. Hobo]

More nukes than the rest of the world combined. Or thereabouts.

Russia would like to have a word with you

[sonic]

lol at people thinking america has any real threats.
If Iraq was a war, we won it the first day
same with every other attempted occupation.

China. Okinawa and guam. Really close to china. The have a gazilion people but retardedly lacking in the air force and naval departments. Our military presence close to them plus the huge ocean ruled by our navy = disaster to them.

Russia?
Very large army presence in Kosovo.

Israel is our bitch.



As far as not violent world impact.... No conversation needed.

[Turtleboy]

I just wanted to say about the Mosque, it's not like it's build on Ground Zero. It's definitely not a "I bombed you and now you're building a mosque dedicated to me and desecrate the thousands that have died"
It's a couple of blocks away and it also symbolizes peace. Plus it's not like everybody who prays at a mosque is related to/have connections to the terrorists that were part of 9/11.

This no building mosque would be like banning churches anywhere a Christian killed somebody

[Turtleboy]

-EDIT-

Sorry, this posting error makes me double post sometimes.


-My bad!

Edited by Turtleboy, 15 September 2010 - 05:16 PM.

[Volition]

lol at people thinking america has any real threats.
If Iraq was a war, we won it the first day
same with every other attempted occupation.

China. Okinawa and guam. Really close to china. The have a gazilion people but retardedly lacking in the air force and naval departments. Our military presence close to them plus the huge ocean ruled by our navy = disaster to them.

Russia?
Very large army presence in Kosovo.

Israel is our bitch.



As far as not violent world impact.... No conversation needed.

Iraq was a war of aggression on USA's part, no WMDs were found. source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/
"we won it the first day same with every other attempted occupation." USA lost in Vietnam.

Former attorney general ramsey clark has described the War on Terror as the War on Islam, saying that when the Cold War against the Communists ended, America decided that “Islam would be the new enemy.”
Source: http://www.discovert...e.asp?indid=781

[sonic]

Iraq was a war of aggression on USA's part, no WMDs were found. source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7634313/
"we won it the first day same with every other attempted occupation." USA lost in Vietnam.

Former attorney general ramsey clark has described the War on Terror as the War on Islam, saying that when the Cold War against the Communists ended, America decided that “Islam would be the new enemy.”
Source: http://www.discovert...e.asp?indid=781

totally missed my point.
OIF1 was a retarded success.
21 days it took to remove Saddam Hussein from power. And thats with minimal civilian causulties. Atleast compared to if we didn't care if we killed a bunch of civilians. That was the war. Anything after that was playing cop.

[Scot]

1. You claim you've spent over $3 Trillion, yet don't take into account the economics affects of Arms production and supply, putting hundreds of thousands of people into jobs, in a tough economic climate and helping America stay above the drainline.

2. Yes, people die in wars. Generally that's what happens in a war, but how many times has relevant intel came from the wars into potential terrorist attacks. Also, the security of Iraq and Afghanistan as an ally in the middle east will put those peoples deaths into perspective.

3.Human rights? Funny, you Americans really need to stop bitching. The UK regularly wiretaps peoples computers, homes, phones etc.. and if it's not a human right. Infact a human right is a social construction and therefore can be changed and manipulated. You also cannot show any correlation between the war in Iraq and human right issues in the US. Want to complain about human rights? Jump on plane to Cambodia, Iran, China, Korea..

4. America has always been a country of scaremongering cowards that throw money at everything. Nothing has changed recently.

5. Don't build a mosque on a practical memorial which was attacked by Islamic fundamentalists. Americans don't have common sense, obviously.

1. It's true that wartime spending can stimulate an economy, however that has not happen since the 1940's. During WWII a lot of people were put to work who didn't have job, like women for instance who took up roles tradtionally held by men who were serving. Car companies like GM converted their factories from producing cars to tanks and combat jeep. There was a resource scarcity so everyone had to ration, leading to a ongoing collective effort. The government encouraged people to do their part with small gestures like growing their own vegetables. That stuff doesn't happen anymore. If you don't watch the news, you'd never know there was a war going on and people go about their business like nothing's happened because really, this has nothing to do with America. It's a war between corporations and the Middle East, we pay the taxes, they get the profits. Instead of giving the work to Americans we hire contractors to overcharge Americans on services they provide overseas.₁

2. Do you really believe this war is to secure stability in the ME instead of oil profits? I do not approve of men going to war over a lie. Hell, the Iraq invasion was put forward days after 9/11_{. "}...even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq."₂. It just took Bush 18 months to come up with an excuse to invade: WMDs, which didn't exist.

A little humor to put things into "perspective":

Spoiler

I think it reinforces my original post the most, being that continued occupation is exactly what the terrorists₂ and the contractors want.

3. To the contrary, human rights abuses are a big factor in terrorist recruitment₄. Prison abuses and waterboarding serves as nothing but ammo to endanger the lives of soldiers overseas.

4. No, nothing has changed and that is exactly the problem.

5. Well the thing is, it's not a "mosque", it's a 13 story community center with "a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11 memorial, and prayer space that could accommodate 1,000–2,000 people.₅" And it's nowhere close to ground zero, it's propose to be built 2 blocks away. The American sheeple will believe anything the media tells them.

---
₁ http://schumer.senat...d.cfm?id=265222
₂ http://www.newameric.../Bushletter.htm - PNAC, Neo-Conservative Thinktank.
₃ http://articles.cnn....bin?_s=PM:WORLD
₄ http://www.independe...11-1674396.html
₅ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51

[Frizzle]

I disagree

That money spent giving people in arms production/supply could have been spent in the form of tax cuts to businesses, directly spent by the government or invested all giving people more jobs

I don't think it has bought any real security. I imagine as more and more troops pull out, the Taliban will grow and if Iran get's the chance, it'll get Iraq under it's thumb



So basically no complaints about human rights being degraded until they reach the point that they are on par with Combodia, Iran or China?

But they've already got jobs, what's the point in giving money through tax cuts in hope of getting a job when instead you can get a well paid, permantly stable job?
And if you believe phone tapping is a violation of human rights in comparison with countries like Cambodia and China, I think you have it too easy and soft in Canada.

Also, FWIW, I'm not incredibly well versed in world history... but from what I can recall.. I can't think of a single country that has EVER won a war in Afghanistan... I mean.. trying to think of people who lost/gave up in that country... germany, england, russia, india, ottoman empire, persian empire, pakistan? I mean... has anyone ever won a war in that country? The odds don't bode well for us. =/ (Someone may want to check that list I pulled out of my ass. I've been known to falsify my own memory before... but I believe it's accurate)

I'm not 100% sure the UK has invaded Afghanistan unless you mean their current occupation with the US.

1. It's true that wartime spending can stimulate an economy, however that has not happen since the 1940's. During WWII a lot of people were put to work who didn't have job, like women for instance who took up roles tradtionally held by men who were serving. Car companies like GM converted their factories from producing cars to tanks and combat jeep. There was a resource scarcity so everyone had to ration, leading to a ongoing collective effort. The government encouraged people to do their part with small gestures like growing their own vegetables. That stuff doesn't happen anymore. If you don't watch the news, you'd never know there was a war going on and people go about their business like nothing's happened because really, this has nothing to do with America. It's a war between corporations and the Middle East, we pay the taxes, they get the profits. Instead of giving the work to Americans we hire contractors to overcharge Americans on services they provide overseas.₁

2. Do you really believe this war is to secure stability in the ME instead of oil profits? I do not approve of men going to war over a lie. Hell, the Iraq invasion was put forward days after 9/11_{. "}...even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq."₂. It just took Bush 18 months to come up with an excuse to invade: WMDs, which didn't exist.

A little humor to put things into "perspective":

Spoiler

I think it reinforces my original post the most, being that continued occupation is exactly what the terrorists₂ and the contractors want.

3. To the contrary, human rights abuses are a big factor in terrorist recruitment₄. Prison abuses and waterboarding serves as nothing but ammo to endanger the lives of soldiers overseas.

4. No, nothing has changed and that is exactly the problem.

5. Well the thing is, it's not a "mosque", it's a 13 story community center with "a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11 memorial, and prayer space that could accommodate 1,000–2,000 people.₅" And it's nowhere close to ground zero, it's propose to be built 2 blocks away. The American sheeple will believe anything the media tells them.

1. That's true, the social changes compared to the "Blitz" spirit has not changed American or UK culture, that may be due to the fact that media corporations have monopolised both countries and that they can swing how both Middle Eastern conflicts in the way they want. Because of this, the positive economic spins of war is usually unheard of and unreported, generally because people would rather hear about someone getting a leg blown off rather than a family putting food on the table.

2. I'm not saying that the reasons going to Iraq were unjust, but that doesn't explain why there has been a constant operation in Afghanistan for just over nine years now. Afghanistan has little in oil reserves so a purpose there must be due to the fact that alot of religious extremist attacks on the west comes from this region. Oil profits are just another negative example of the media's view on the war. To say Iraq was invaded due to oil profits is still an unfair claim, it may be a influentical factor but it doesn't explain why the US hasn't invaded Scotland, the Falkland Islands, Iran, Saudi Arabia or even Mexico. And surely it would be easier to invade a country on your doorstep, with a smaller army, filled with oil than shipping people overseas.

Actually, we didn't lose in Vietnam. We withdrew. It wasn't really our war to begin with...

To Scot:

I was like "wtf who's this dude Scot?" and then I was like "ahh".

[Mr. Hobo]

But they've already got jobs, what's the point in giving money through tax cuts in hope of getting a job when instead you can get a well paid, permantly stable job?
And if you believe phone tapping is a violation of human rights in comparison with countries like Cambodia and China, I think you have it too easy and soft in Canada.]

Permanently stable assuming America stays in a constant state of war . I'd much rather see jobs created that actually yield a benefit besides allowing that war to go on.
Compared to China/Cambodia wire tapping is nothing, but compared to the rights once had (and the rights still possessed by a lot of European countries) it's a step in a wrong direction, one that should be undone.