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Using Amazon EC2


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#76 riskyclick

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:50 PM

Previously, it was very safe to AB in the attic, as TNT didn't monitor it. Now that the cat's out of the bag, more and more people will start using EC2. Eventually, TNT will have to do something about it. Therefore, I'd say the chance of being frozen is highly likely, because eventually (probably within the next year), EC2's popularity will increase high enough to catch TNT's attention. Most of the guys who enjoyed this system to the fullest have already left/are leaving the attic for good, with their fair share of profits, so, it's kind of every man for himself deal now.

 

Just AB on a side account.

+rep for the detailed response.

Right now I'm using EC2 on a side account and I hope I don't get chain iced. If I do I'll probably say fuck it and quit neopets.



#77 201211

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:57 PM

I'm completely torn over whether this is good or bad. It's a pretty thorough post Shrouded so props there since you obviously know what you're doing. I guess I'm just a little worried/jealous that my profits will be going down now. I'm not gonna make a fuss over it, because it does require work to be able to use this properly and to know how to make a profit.. but it just kinda feels like a guarded secret has been let loose that could level the playing field pretty quickly.

 

I'm not sure how to feel about this either. I didn't know about EC2 until just now. I'm relatively new to Abrosia, and I've struggled to get profits. I make about 60-200K a day ABing at low-profit shops, but that's because I'm a nonadvanced user. I always miss stuff in the attic, even when I leave Abrosia attic on for hours and hours...

 

Seeing as EC2 can make 70+ mil in a week...well...I don't know. What can you do with 70 mil? In a month, that's 280 mil, in a year, probably two billion. I don't know how you could accumulate such wealth without catching TNT's eye, except for buying expensive gallery items and pooling it among side accounts.

 

In the end though, now that EC2 has been released for the world to see, I doubt I'd be seeing much profits in the attic much longer. So, it's a mixed kind of deal, releasing for the world to see. It certainly levels out the playing field, but now the profits are not nearly as much, and probably won't last much longer once TNT addresses the issue.

 

There's probably another new EC2 out there, the next high-profit highly-guarded secret. I can't imagine releasing a secret like this, unless there was a new one.



#78 Adam

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:03 PM

I'm not sure how to feel about this either. I didn't know about EC2 until just now. I'm relatively new to Abrosia, and I've struggled to get profits. I make about 60-200K a day ABing at low-profit shops, but that's because I'm a nonadvanced user. I always miss stuff in the attic, even when I leave Abrosia attic on for hours and hours...

 

Seeing as EC2 can make 70+ mil in a week...well...I don't know. What can you do with 70 mil? In a month, that's 280 mil, in a year, probably two billion. I don't know how you could accumulate such wealth without catching TNT's eye, except for buying expensive gallery items and pooling it among side accounts.

 

In the end though, now that EC2 has been released for the world to see, I doubt I'd be seeing much profits in the attic much longer. So, it's a mixed kind of deal, releasing for the world to see. It certainly levels out the playing field, but now the profits are not nearly as much, and probably won't last much longer once TNT addresses the issue.

 

There's probably another new EC2 out there, the next high-profit highly-guarded secret. I can't imagine releasing a secret like this, unless there was a new one.

If you're smart, this can be a massively profitable tool for you. If you're an idiot, your accounts will be frozen rather quickly. Let's just say that I've gone through 3 shell accounts in...5 months. I'm pretty much an idiot.

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#79 Futurama

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:52 PM

95% of the new people using EC2 will be iced within' 1 week. Sure everyone knows about it now, but not everyone knows the extra secrets.

#80 shrouded

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:47 PM

95% of the new people using EC2 will be iced within' 1 week. Sure everyone knows about it now, but not everyone knows the extra secrets.

 

 

I've told 3/4 of the things you need to know to absolutely dominate. EC2, fast accounts, and threading. You can easily get 2/3 of those, and if you look around the forums for who is doing coding and who has already released threaded programs you could acquire the third for a price.


I'm not sure how to feel about this either. I didn't know about EC2 until just now. I'm relatively new to Abrosia, and I've struggled to get profits. I make about 60-200K a day ABing at low-profit shops, but that's because I'm a nonadvanced user. I always miss stuff in the attic, even when I leave Abrosia attic on for hours and hours...

 

Seeing as EC2 can make 70+ mil in a week...well...I don't know. What can you do with 70 mil? In a month, that's 280 mil, in a year, probably two billion. I don't know how you could accumulate such wealth without catching TNT's eye, except for buying expensive gallery items and pooling it among side accounts.

 

In the end though, now that EC2 has been released for the world to see, I doubt I'd be seeing much profits in the attic much longer. So, it's a mixed kind of deal, releasing for the world to see. It certainly levels out the playing field, but now the profits are not nearly as much, and probably won't last much longer once TNT addresses the issue.

 

There's probably another new EC2 out there, the next high-profit highly-guarded secret. I can't imagine releasing a secret like this, unless there was a new one.

 

70m a week is on the low end of what was possible when only 2-3 people were in the attic. Once Laura left I'm fairly confident only one other person was even competing with me at all, and I was still getting 80% of what I went for. Once I acquired a threaded AA'er I was getting multiples of items that stock. If you didn't know it's common that r98 stamps stock 2-3 at a time and ZDAP stocks 3-5 at a time. That meant the 2-3m stamps stocking earned me 5m, and they stock pretty much every day. ZDAPs were/are stocking around 2-3 times a week, and they were around 7m at the time. That meant every ZDAP stock was at least 20m. That was just if I used one account, by running more than one on my own and my partner at the time running two we basically bought 85% of the 2m+ items. We sold 400m NP in a month, but we earned significantly more than that. 

 

 

tl;dr if you use 2m as your minimum profit you're going to earn a share of ~500-600m a month. Laura was using 10-15 accounts at a time apparently doing 500k+ for a period of time and she had 15b NP. So yeah..


Updated OP with the link to EC2 management console.



#81 ShadowLink64

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 04:53 AM

tl;dr if you use 2m as your minimum profit you're going to earn a share of ~500-600m a month.

Probably not anymore, now that everyone's using EC2 with insane pings. ;)

In the end though, now that EC2 has been released for the world to see, I doubt I'd be seeing much profits in the attic much longer. So, it's a mixed kind of deal, releasing for the world to see. It certainly levels out the playing field, but now the profits are not nearly as much, and probably won't last much longer once TNT addresses the issue.

I think that this was the end goal in all of this. There's probably something new out there. :p

#82 Jess

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:48 AM

Probably not anymore, now that everyone's using EC2 with insane pings. ;)


Well, he didn't say how big of a share.

#83 Dan

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:57 AM

and threading. 

 

 who has already released threaded programs you could acquire the third for a price.

 

inigo-montoya.jpg



#84 Cript

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:14 AM

Sorry to burst your bubble :) SL64 told me about it over a year ago and I had my fun gaining massive wealth. Time to share the party with everyone else huehuehue

 

Don't forget to share the other "trick" that makes an account buy about 200ms faster. ;)


Sadly, this being in a public section of the site will result in one very simple outcome - TNT rate shaping traffic sourced from EC2. Enjoy it while it lasts because it won't last long.



#85 Neoquest

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:21 AM

inigo-montoya.jpg

 

You can use threaded programs to send multiple buy requests at once. It can often help avoid lag on neopets servers and allow you to make multiple buys in one stock. There are also a few other places you can use threads to squeeze out a few extra milliseconds.


Edited by Neoquest, 07 July 2013 - 08:26 AM.


#86 Cript

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:26 AM

Nope. You can use threaded programs to send multiple buy requests at once. It can often help avoid lag on neopets servers and allow you to make multiple buys in one stock. There are a few other places you can use threads in the attic to increase efficiency.

 

Another big reason multi-threading matters so much on Neo is that they don't support HTTP Keep-Alives meaning the client has to setup a new TCP connection for every request/post...terribly inefficient to wait for 3 additional round trips before every single attempt.



#87 Futurama

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:52 AM

 

Sadly, this being in a public section of the site will result in one very simple outcome - TNT rate shaping traffic sourced from EC2. Enjoy it while it lasts because it won't last long.

 

 

 

 

The thing is, a lot of people won't do this, firstly you need a credit card (or one of those visa gift cards or w/e), secondly you start getting charged after a year. Then once someone gets iced the first time they'll get discouraged about using it. Sure there will be some more people using it, but it won't make THAT big of an impact.



#88 Waser Lave

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:56 AM

The thing is, a lot of people won't do this, firstly you need a credit card (or one of those visa gift cards or w/e), secondly you start getting charged after a year. Then once someone gets iced the first time they'll get discouraged about using it. Sure there will be some more people using it, but it won't make THAT big of an impact.

 

And TNT probably won't care anyway.



#89 201211

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:01 AM

The thing is, a lot of people won't do this, firstly you need a credit card (or one of those visa gift cards or w/e), secondly you start getting charged after a year. Then once someone gets iced the first time they'll get discouraged about using it. Sure there will be some more people using it, but it won't make THAT big of an impact.

 

There's also going to be people, like me, who'll take in consideration the rising popularity of EC2 and the risks associated with that. I bought my first attic shell over the weekend because of EC2, but after considering all the exposure EC2 is getting, I'm starting to feel like it may not be worth it anymore :/

 

I have no doubt others share my thoughts as well. 

 

Like the other guy, since I already bought the shell, I'll give it a try. But if I get frozen, well, I'll be thinking for a heck long more time before shelling out more NP to buy a shell. I'll also be factoring in EC2's popularity, and TNT's eventual response to it as well, when the time comes.



#90 Dan

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:10 AM

Every modern application you run on any machine will generally multi-threaded. That's how applications can run something in the background and still allow user input (e.g. allowing you to click the stop button in Abrosia even though it's currently refreshing a shop page).

 

Another big reason multi-threading matters so much on Neo is that they don't support HTTP Keep-Alives meaning the client has to setup a new TCP connection for every request/post...terribly inefficient to wait for 3 additional round trips before every single attempt.

 

Your point about keep-alives is true, but what aspect of multi-threading aids that scenario? Having multiple threads doesn't get around the inability to keep a connection open between requests

 

You can use threaded programs to send multiple buy requests at once. It can often help avoid lag on neopets servers and allow you to make multiple buys in one stock. There are also a few other places you can use threads to squeeze out a few extra milliseconds.

 

I don't really see what you're getting out - you're a bit mistaken here:

  • Every application is threaded.
  • Nothing stops you sending multiple buy requests in one stock with one thread (this is generally why we use asynchronous requests for HTTP)
  • Assuming you mean using threads to send requests, you still won't "avoid" any lag on neopets servers because that's out of any application's control

Using multi-threading as a way of using multiple accounts to monitor shop restocks or buy on side shell accounts can be beneficial, but you're all way off of the mark with your reasoning behind why.

 

It's important to remember that just applying the word 'THREADING' or 'MULTI-THREADED' to an application is just a buzzword that people regard as a synonym for 'fast' or 'efficient' - but that isn't the case - you have to actually know what you're doing and have a decent understanding of thread management for it to offer any kind of improvement.

 

It's also a pretty quick and easy way to make your application monstrously complex and difficult to support.



#91 Neoquest

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:22 AM

  • Not every application is threaded, every program with a responsive GUI is.
  • No research done here, but I'd assume asynchronous HTTP requests are achieved through threading.
  • Yet again, not sure, but If they have some sort of load balancing system, each of your requests could potentially handled by a different server.
  • I'm 100% sure it works, as I wrote the multi-threaded autobuyer that Shrouded is talking about. The difference in buy times was pretty obvious.


#92 shrouded

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:37 AM

Every modern application you run on any machine will generally multi-threaded. That's how applications can run something in the background and still allow user input (e.g. allowing you to click the stop button in Abrosia even though it's currently refreshing a shop page).

 

 

Your point about keep-alives is true, but what aspect of multi-threading aids that scenario? Having multiple threads doesn't get around the inability to keep a connection open between requests

 

 

I don't really see what you're getting out - you're a bit mistaken here:

  • Every application is threaded.
  • Nothing stops you sending multiple buy requests in one stock with one thread (this is generally why we use asynchronous requests for HTTP)
  • Assuming you mean using threads to send requests, you still won't "avoid" any lag on neopets servers because that's out of any application's control

Using multi-threading as a way of using multiple accounts to monitor shop restocks or buy on side shell accounts can be beneficial, but you're all way off of the mark with your reasoning behind why.

 

It's important to remember that just applying the word 'THREADING' or 'MULTI-THREADED' to an application is just a buzzword that people regard as a synonym for 'fast' or 'efficient' - but that isn't the case - you have to actually know what you're doing and have a decent understanding of thread management for it to offer any kind of improvement.

 

It's also a pretty quick and easy way to make your application monstrously complex and difficult to support.

 

Tl;Dr read Neoquest's post. It does in fact work much better than Abrosia and SL64 said that he didn't want to add it to Abrosia because "everyone shouldn't have access to that". Hate to break it to you but the program was in no way large or complex. You can see right in the program that it does in fact help prevent latency, when some threads return back in 120ms and others in 300ms. 

 

 

Tell me more about how you know everything about this program :)


Don't forget to share the other "trick" that makes an account buy about 200ms faster. ;)


Sadly, this being in a public section of the site will result in one very simple outcome - TNT rate shaping traffic sourced from EC2. Enjoy it while it lasts because it won't last long.

 

Come along now we don't want to ruin all the fun for ourselves. Just enough to level out the playing field for people with terrible internet, or no idea about EC2.



#93 Waser Lave

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:39 AM

Tell me more about how you know everything about this program :)


You also don't know everything. ;)

#94 shrouded

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:40 AM

Probably not anymore, now that everyone's using EC2 with insane pings. ;)

I think that this was the end goal in all of this. There's probably something new out there. :p

 

You'll earn a share. And I went on to say that if you lower the minimum profit to 500k, you'll likely earn a share from a pool ~5x as large.

Isn't there always something new out there?


You also don't know everything. ;)

 

Which is why I worked with someone else on making it, and received help from so many sources.



#95 Dan

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:42 AM

 

  • Not every application is threaded, every program with a responsive GUI is.
  • No research done here, but I'd assume asynchronous HTTP requests are achieved through threading.
  • Yet again, not sure, but If they have some sort of load balancing system, each of your requests could potentially handled by a different server.
  • I'm 100% sure it works, as I wrote the multi-threaded autobuyer that Shrouded is talking about. The difference in buy times was pretty obvious.

 

 

You don't understand the concept. Every application has a thread, making it "threaded".

The importance of multi-threading comes in when you wish do to something synchronous while allowing (an)other operation(s) to execute.

 

Asynchronous web requests are indeed achieved through spawning a background thread and returning the response when it's been received.

 

Potentially, if they have a load balancer, you're correct. However you'd still need to be routed to this other server, but the point of a load balancer is to make sure the load is balanced - so the latency and work time for each server should be generally the same, meaning that this offers no improvement.

 

I'm glad you saw results when you switched it to be multi-threaded.

 

----

 

Shrouded, I do this for a living -- I was hoping for a technical discussion. You spouting random millisecond figures at me isn't a technical discussion. I don't appreciate the flamebaiting either.



#96 shrouded

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:46 AM

You don't understand the concept. Every application has a thread, making it "threaded".

The importance of multi-threading comes in when you wish do to something synchronous while allowing (an)other operation(s) to execute.

 

Asynchronous web requests are indeed achieved through spawning a background thread and returning the response when it's been received.

 

Potentially, if they have a load balancer, you're correct. However you'd still need to be routed to this other server, but the point of a load balancer is to make sure the load is balanced - so the latency and work time for each server should be generally the same, meaning that this offers no improvement.

 

I'm glad you saw results when you switched it to be multi-threaded.

 

----

 

Shrouded, I do this for a living -- I was hoping for a technical discussion. You spouting random millisecond figures at me isn't a technical discussion. I don't appreciate the flamebaiting either.

 

If you want technical details then PM Neoquest, Valorous, or SL64. I'm the one flame baiting when you're in here posting meme images.

 

 

Even after load balancing, you'd still have the advantage of requesting to buy multiple items and the same time. Abrosia won't ever attempt to buy more than 1 item in a stock.


Edited by Shrouded, 07 July 2013 - 09:47 AM.


#97 Dan

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:58 AM

If you want technical details then PM Neoquest, Valorous, or SL64. I'm the one flame baiting when you're in here posting meme images.

 

 

Even after load balancing, you'd still have the advantage of requesting to buy multiple items and the same time. Abrosia won't ever attempt to buy more than 1 item in a stock.

 

No no no - I'm not overly interested in learning about how these things are working at present, I'm more interested in making sure that you aren't contributing to the wealth of misinformation around this subject.

 

I don't deny there are some advantages, but I think it makes sense to communicate correct technical information and not throw words that sound cool around hoping nobody would take notice.



#98 shrouded

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:05 AM

No no no - I'm not overly interested in learning about how these things are working at present, I'm more interested in making sure that you aren't contributing to the wealth of misinformation around this subject.

 

I don't deny there are some advantages, but I think it makes sense to communicate correct technical information and not throw words that sound cool around hoping nobody would take notice.

 

Technical information on a specific AA'er can come from whoever produces it and releases it. I haven't nor have I ever been in charge of that part. All I did was have it done. I'm fairly certain the new update in Valorous' suite uses multi-threading. Go pester him for information about it.



#99 Cript

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:21 AM

And TNT probably won't care anyway.

 

They already apply policies to specific account types...no reason to think the inverse won't happen.



#100 shrouded

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:23 AM

They already apply policies to specific account types...no reason to think the inverse won't happen.

 

They also already have flags in place for sending too many requests. That's just general bot-stopping behavior added from Freaky's NP Gen though. 




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