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Do you support gay marriage??


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#176 Grandmaster

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:39 AM

Also, if you actually read the link and click amongst the other links, you would see that what they showed you was just the select few they decided to post. In addition, the fact you compare cannibalism and murder to natural attraction, two things that harm others directly, another that doesnt directly effect you at all. You still never answered me though, how does this directly effect you in your everyday life? How does two people who are in love with each other effect YOU as a person directly?

 

Furthermore, as I stated above, you honestly got flustered that I called you a doodlehead. If you view any political debate, Congress, House of Commons, anything really, being called a doodlehead is probably the least of your concerns. You want an actual debate? Yes, people will bring their emotions into this. It's how one gets passionate Dnd finds a cause to fight for. I ignored the fact you weren't for gay marriages. Did it irk me? Yes. Did it irk most of us? Yes. However, you're entitled to your opinion, as we are to ours. Did we chuckle when you brought up a robot uprising into a gay marriage arguement? Yes, yes we did. However, you're entitled to your opinion and thoughts. However, honestly, I drew the line when you considered me calling you a doodlehead a personal attack. On this forum, people can call you A LOT worse of things than a doodlehead. To be honest, I heard the kids I babysit call each other doodleheads to annoy each other. Did any of the kids freak out and cry? Nope. They rebutted with worse, however, the original debate amongst the two of them was whether grape or strawberry jam was more supreme.

 

And lastly, while this doesn't have to do with gay marriage and rights directly, this video right here should pretty much explain my views about most things, plus it'll give us some time to cool down and have a laugh.  Take it away Mr. Carlin. http://youtu.be/hWiBt-pqp0E


Oh. And here is something nifty from Mr. Lewis Black that's actually on the topic of gay marriage ;) http://youtu.be/o-id4GKsaQk

 

I have actually make some buffer for those that were not posted and said that it should still be under 1000 species. (23 species mentioned to under 1000 species, I think that's fair enough buffer).

 

The argument once again shifted to the effects of homosexuality so basically it is no longer about animal behaviour argument. For short term effects, you may not be able to see the impact of gay marriage. But that 4 opposition points I have mentioned earlier is going to produce long term effects that are going to affect everyone and the future generations.

 

Maybe you want to read a bit on what constitutes a personal attack and why it is fallacious in the first place: http://www.nizkor.or...nal-attack.html

 

Even by saying someone is untrustworthy constitutes a personal attack, because it is subconsciously trying to undermine the credibility of debater and essentially undermining whatever argument that person is trying to make even though the claims may be valid. Doodlehead has the meaning of someone screwing up all the time so that would undermine the credibility of the debater as well. It may not be considered an insult or offensive, but it is still a personal attack.

 

Doodlehead isn't a malicious term. I didn't mean it by that way, nor should it be taken that way.

 

And it's no, it's not okay just because animals do it, it's the fact animals have been doing it for years, it's a common trait that has been documented. Just because we are humans, that doesn't take away from the fact we too are part of the Animal Kingdom We are animals. We are part of the Primate Order, in the class Mammalia, Phylum Chordata, and as mentioned previously, the Kingdom of Animalia. We have evolved throughout the the many millions of the years to the current species of human we are today. We may be intellectually superior to many species of animals, but it doesn't dispute from the fact we too are animals, and to consider ourselves above that isn't exactly scientifically accurate.

 

Was that enough focus for everyone?


http://kids.discover...sidered-animals

 

http://chronicle.com...d-teacher/32709

 

http://science.howst...test-animal.htm

 

http://www.squidoo.com/humananimal

 

There. Some evidence to support my claims.


Now, if I called Grandmaster a DoodleBOP, I may see that as an insult, as none should ever be compared to these.... *shudders*

 

http://en.wikipedia..../The_Doodlebops

 

I'm not sure why you are trying to find evidence that humans are similar to animals. It is a different story all together when you use these evidence to state that therefore it is all right for humans to exhibit or adopt animal behaviours. This could easliy become a slippery slope if we adopt this kind of thinking and you can pretty much argue anything that is against the law using this concept. Any rights are constantly being infringed in the animal world. As long as you are the most powerful animal, you can do whatever you like even if it means killing the weaker animals.


Edited by Grandmaster, 01 August 2013 - 07:39 AM.


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    #177 NapisaurusRex

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    Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:00 AM

    As long as you are the most powerful animal, you can do whatever you like.

    Exactly.

    #178 MishaZheleza

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    Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:55 PM

    I have actually make some buffer for those that were not posted and said that it should still be under 1000 species. (23 species mentioned to under 1000 species, I think that's fair enough buffer).

     

    The argument once again shifted to the effects of homosexuality so basically it is no longer about animal behaviour argument. For short term effects, you may not be able to see the impact of gay marriage. But that 4 opposition points I have mentioned earlier is going to produce long term effects that are going to affect everyone and the future generations.

     

    Maybe you want to read a bit on what constitutes a personal attack and why it is fallacious in the first place: http://www.nizkor.or...nal-attack.html

     

    Even by saying someone is untrustworthy constitutes a personal attack, because it is subconsciously trying to undermine the credibility of debater and essentially undermining whatever argument that person is trying to make even though the claims may be valid. Doodlehead has the meaning of someone screwing up all the time so that would undermine the credibility of the debater as well. It may not be considered an insult or offensive, but it is still a personal attack.

     

     

    I'm not sure why you are trying to find evidence that humans are similar to animals. It is a different story all together when you use these evidence to state that therefore it is all right for humans to exhibit or adopt animal behaviours. This could easliy become a slippery slope if we adopt this kind of thinking and you can pretty much argue anything that is against the law using this concept. Any rights are constantly being infringed in the animal world. As long as you are the most powerful animal, you can do whatever you like even if it means killing the weaker animals.

    You keep saying how humans are different from animals, when we are animals. You even said it yourself, we can do whatever we like. If we would like to be married to who we wish, then so be it. Seeing how you keep avoiding the fact when I ask you how this directly harms you, I feel as if you can't come up with a sufficent answer, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Since you made the bold comparisson that gay marriage is the equilavent of murder, I bring this next piece of proof for our debate. I talk about the murder of Lawrence King.

     

    http://en.wikipedia....r_of_Larry_King

    http://www.huffingto..._n_1109047.html

    http://thenewcivilri...011/09/22/27353

     

    In short, in 2008, 15 year old Larry King (Not the news anchor that is thousands of years old :funone:) was shot in his junior high classroom by 14 year old Brandon McInerney. Larry was very flamboyent and open with his sexuality, and was often the target of bullying. He also happened to have a crush on Brandon, and would openly flirt with him, causing kids to pick on both Larry and Brandon. Larry was known to taunt his bullies back with usually something sexual, however in the months leading up to the shooting, he hadn't taunted anyone who bothered him. The day before the shooting, Larry gave Brandon a Valentine, and was being his usual flirty self. This made Brandon very embaressed and very mad. The next day, February 12, 2008, during class, Brandon retrieved a .22-Caliber Pistol from his backpack and shot Larry in the head twice. Larry King died on life support two days later, Brandon McInerney was sentenced to 21 years in prison.

     

    Tell me how this young boy struggling to express his sexuality and gender expression is the same evil as the same boy being murdered because his classmate was uncomofortable?



    #179 Grandmaster

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 05:19 PM

    You keep saying how humans are different from animals, when we are animals. You even said it yourself, we can do whatever we like. If we would like to be married to who we wish, then so be it. Seeing how you keep avoiding the fact when I ask you how this directly harms you, I feel as if you can't come up with a sufficent answer, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Since you made the bold comparisson that gay marriage is the equilavent of murder, I bring this next piece of proof for our debate. I talk about the murder of Lawrence King.

     

    http://en.wikipedia....r_of_Larry_King

    http://www.huffingto..._n_1109047.html

    http://thenewcivilri...011/09/22/27353

     

    In short, in 2008, 15 year old Larry King (Not the news anchor that is thousands of years old :funone:) was shot in his junior high classroom by 14 year old Brandon McInerney. Larry was very flamboyent and open with his sexuality, and was often the target of bullying. He also happened to have a crush on Brandon, and would openly flirt with him, causing kids to pick on both Larry and Brandon. Larry was known to taunt his bullies back with usually something sexual, however in the months leading up to the shooting, he hadn't taunted anyone who bothered him. The day before the shooting, Larry gave Brandon a Valentine, and was being his usual flirty self. This made Brandon very embaressed and very mad. The next day, February 12, 2008, during class, Brandon retrieved a .22-Caliber Pistol from his backpack and shot Larry in the head twice. Larry King died on life support two days later, Brandon McInerney was sentenced to 21 years in prison.

     

    Tell me how this young boy struggling to express his sexuality and gender expression is the same evil as the same boy being murdered because his classmate was uncomofortable?

     

    There is usually no direct harm on individuals for the abolishment of most of the laws for short term. For instance, when you talked about murder, someone murder someone he/she hates in another country, it does not do harm directly to me who is not hated by that person and in a totally different country. Likewise for raping, when a man rapes a woman in another place, it does not do harm directly to me who is a man in a totally different place.

     

    However, we usually argue against murder and rape in terms of its long term effects and its infringement of rights on others. But in the animal world, there is neither concern for long term effects nor protection of rights for others.

     

    The comparison for homosexual acts and murder is only used in the context of animal behaviour argument. When it is being taken out of that context, then it is not a suitable comparison.

     

    However, the example of Larry and Brandon brought up another important issue about the nurture environment. Larry is a homosexual and Brandon is a heterosexual. So what would be best solution when Larry expresses love for Brandon? Accepting it and become gay as well? Rejecting it but have Larry keep coming back to him and have Brandon lost his female friends because he is being seen as gay by others due to persistent encounters of Larry? It already posed a dilemma for the teenager. If the nurture environment is less affected by homosexual acts, Larry would have to control himself once he got rejected by Brandon and Brandon could have continued to pursue his heterosexual partner without caring about Brandon's earlier expression of love.



    #180 MishaZheleza

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 05:36 PM

    So, you would condone more murders of people who identify with the LGBT community because it's the only way to maintain their sexuality of being straight and in control?

    #181 Mishelle

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 05:38 PM

    I love how we're debating his argument that gay marriage is going to lead to robot people when we're not even close to developing that kind of technology.


    Edited by Mishelle, 02 August 2013 - 05:46 PM.


    #182 Grandmaster

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 05:56 PM

    So, you would condone more murders of people who identify with the LGBT community because it's the only way to maintain their sexuality of being straight and in control?

     

    I don't know how you have implied that conclusion from my statement.

     

    As long as there is less official recognition for LGBT community such as gay marriage, LGBT community will not continue to grow and will instead decline as the community ages. Then it will not lead to any of the major long term effects that I have proposed earlier.

     

    If there are more official recognition for LGBT community such as gay marriage, then LGBT community will likely to grow and poses the major long term effects that I have proposed earlier.

     

    I love how we're debating his argument that gay marriage is going to lead to robots when we don't even have robots.

     

    The development of artificial intelligence and robots that can speak or interact with humans is already progressing quite fast.

     

    http://science.howst....com/robot6.htm

    http://ti.arc.nasa.g...igent-robotics/

    http://www.algebra.c...gi-bin/chat.mpl



    #183 Mishelle

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:08 PM

    I don't know how you have implied that conclusion from my statement.

     

    As long as there is less official recognition for LGBT community such as gay marriage, LGBT community will not continue to grow and will instead decline as the community ages. Then it will not lead to any of the major long term effects that I have proposed earlier.

     

    If there are more official recognition for LGBT community such as gay marriage, then LGBT community will likely to grow and poses the major long term effects that I have proposed earlier.

     

     

    The development of artificial intelligence and robots that can speak or interact with humans is already progressing quite fast.

     

    http://science.howst....com/robot6.htm

    http://ti.arc.nasa.g...igent-robotics/

    http://www.algebra.c...gi-bin/chat.mpl

     

    Yeah but you have failed to provide proof for 3 things in all of these pages. 

     

    1. People will start preferring robots to human children

    2. Straight people will stop having kids they can't take care of 

    3. Gay marriage will make more people gay. 

     

    These are all theories that you cannot prove however history in other countries that have had gay marriage for years now shows that what you're saying may happen isn't going to happen.

     

    Like why would people randomly start wanting robots instead of kids? People still bitch and complain when they call customer service and get automated messages.


    Edited by Mishelle, 02 August 2013 - 06:11 PM.


    #184 Bone

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:10 PM

    omg lol is this still happening



    #185 NapisaurusRex

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:25 PM

    3. Gay marriage will make more people gay.

    I've been thinking about this one. It's not that more people would be gay, it's that as it becomes more acceptable, more people will become openly gay.

    #186 Grandmaster

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 07:16 PM

    Yeah but you have failed to provide proof for 3 things in all of these pages. 

     

    1. People will start preferring robots to human children

    2. Straight people will stop having kids they can't take care of 

    3. Gay marriage will make more people gay. 

     

    These are all theories that you cannot prove however history in other countries that have had gay marriage for years now shows that what you're saying may happen isn't going to happen.

     

    Like why would people randomly start wanting robots instead of kids? People still bitch and complain when they call customer service and get automated messages.

     

    1. Using robots to substitute humans, it is not to substitute human children. With wider adoption of technology tools for reproduction as well as the adoption of other technology tools to cure diseases, there will be push for greater technology freedom which will intensify the research areas in the field of genes, robots and artificial intelligence. With possible decline of human population with the baby boomer generation disappearing, the world will be faced with labour issues. We have already started seeing signs of governments giving preference for automation for industries and corporations to remain competitive in the face of tight markets due to lower birth rates across the world in the past one or two decades.

     

    http://cps.sagepub.c.../2/192.abstract

    http://www.rikvin.co...subsidies-tech/

     

    2. The birth rate has been declined across the world over the years and is projected to continue to decline by UN. Source: https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Birth_rate

     

    3. Homosexual acts are a result of both natural tendency and nurture environment. The official recognition granted to homosexual acts such as gay marriage will likely to impact the nurture environment, influencing more people.

     

    "It's clear that a change in sexual orientation is imaginable to more people than ever before, and there's more opportunity -- and acceptance -- to cross over the line," says Klein, noting that a half-dozen of her married female patients in the past few years have fallen in love with women. "Most are afraid that if they don't go for it, they'll end up with regrets."

    Source: http://edition.cnn.c...e.menfor.women/

     

    Right now, only 13 countries have legalised gay marriage but total number of countries in the world is 196. So the full effects of gay marriage has not been shown even if there are countries which have legalised gay marriage for years. This is especially so when China and India which consist of 1.3 and 1.2 billion people has not legalised gay marriage.



    #187 VaultBoy

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 07:16 PM

    I've been thinking about this one. It's not that more people would be gay, it's that as it becomes more acceptable, more people will become openly gay.

    Just like pre 1960's, so many people were gay but didn't dare to show it publicly...



    #188 NapisaurusRex

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 07:28 PM

    Just like pre 1960's, so many people were gay but didn't dare to show it publicly...

    Well, I was thinking more of like now, but yeah.

    #189 Mishelle

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    Posted 02 August 2013 - 10:20 PM

    Okay I'm going to seriously try to explain to you why what you're saying is complete and utter nonsense. If you still think that robots are going to replace humans because of gay marriage, I'm done you can keep thinking that. It doesn't really effect me one way or the other.

     

     

    1. Using robots to substitute humans, it is not to substitute human children. With wider adoption of technology tools for reproduction as well as the adoption of other technology tools to cure diseases, there will be push for greater technology freedom which will intensify the research areas in the field of genes, robots and artificial intelligence. With possible decline of human population with the baby boomer generation disappearing, the world will be faced with labour issues. We have already started seeing signs of governments giving preference for automation for industries and corporations to remain competitive in the face of tight markets due to lower birth rates across the world in the past one or two decades.

     

    http://cps.sagepub.c.../2/192.abstract

    http://www.rikvin.co...subsidies-tech/

     

     

    1. This decline doesn't have anything to do with people being gay. It has everything to do with straight couples overall having fewer children. They're not giving preference for machines because there are fewer humans. The western nations have been turning away from blue collar production work and subsidizing new technology for a very long time, these articles prove nothing. More western nations were adopting white collar jobs and more technical jobs because we've advanced our technology to where production can mainly be done by machines. It was never because there aren't enough people to do it, it's simply because it's cheaper to use machine automation. There are more high skilled jobs that are going to be available when the baby boomer retire/die off, but these aren't blue collar assembly jobs, they're technical jobs that will require a high level of education and skill. We definitely already have enough people to fill these positions, but not all of them have access to the education to develop the skills required. Not to mention there are other countries with more than enough people who could fill these positions. But that would require these western countries to not be nationalistic assholes with xenophobic immigration policies.

     

    2. The birth rate has been declined across the world over the years and is projected to continue to decline by UN. Source: https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Birth_rate

     

    1. Thanks to birth control. Not gay people, gay marriage being legal isn't going to make straight people have less kids, they're doing that all on their own. In fact many gay couples want to adopt the kids that straight people have and can't take care of but they can't because their relationships aren't recognized by the government. Single people are discouraged from adopting kids and people below a certain income are discouraged from adopting kids. If gay couples were recognized they would be able to have a joint income and be recognized as a couple making it easier to adopt children. It would also help if these agencies weren't filled with homophobic fuckwits. This is ignoring the fact that women are capable of birthing their own kids, and gay men can hire surrogates. I have a friend, she is a gay woman, she has 7 children that she gave birth to. Nothing about being gay makes people have less children. Having children is a personal choice for everyone, not just straight people. 

     

    From your own source. 

     

     

    Factors affecting birth rate[edit source | editbeta]

     

    Gay marriage isn't anywhere on this list.

     

    3. Homosexual acts are a result of both natural tendency and nurture environment. The official recognition granted to homosexual acts such as gay marriage will likely to impact the nurture environment, influencing more people.

     

    "It's clear that a change in sexual orientation is imaginable to more people than ever before, and there's more opportunity -- and acceptance -- to cross over the line," says Klein, noting that a half-dozen of her married female patients in the past few years have fallen in love with women. "Most are afraid that if they don't go for it, they'll end up with regrets."

    Source: http://edition.cnn.c...e.menfor.women/

     

     Your own article states that  there's no numerical proof that the number of women who do this is even significant.

     

    Right now, only 13 countries have legalised gay marriage but total number of countries in the world is 196. So the full effects of gay marriage has not been shown even if there are countries which have legalised gay marriage for years. This is especially so when China and India which consist of 1.3 and 1.2 billion people has not legalised gay marriage.

     

    You still have yet to prove that gay marriage is increasing the population of gay people.  You still have yet to prove that any of this has any effect at all on the number of children being born. That's because they don't. The nations that have gay marriage are more developed nations. These developed nations have access to contraceptives. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH GAY PEOPLE. IT HAS TO DO WITH STRAIGHT PEOPLE WANTING LESS CHILDREN AND USING BIRTH CONTROL.


    Edited by Mishelle, 02 August 2013 - 10:23 PM.


    #190 Elva

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    Posted 03 August 2013 - 01:14 AM

    This thread has moved a lot since I was here o.O Currently busy with uni work and don't have time to do more than skim everyone's arguments (much less write out a comprehensive rebuttal/argument like when I was on holidays last time), but all I can say is...lol.

     

    1) I am amused that people seem to think referencing animal behaviour is a bad thing (a la cannibalism) when animal behaviour supports homosexuality, yet can simultaneously argue that homosexuality is bad because it's "against nature".

     

    2) The robots-taking-over-the-world argument is still making giant leaps in logic. "If you allow X, it is only a small step to proceed to Y" is NOT a valid argument unless you can demonstrate why it would be such a small step. I'm not denying that it is possible, but it doesn't mean it will happen. We cloned Dolly the Sheep, but we don't have human clones running around everywhere. If you were to ask me whether sheep-cloning or gay marriage were more likely to lead to human cloning, I'd bet my life on the former. Your argument is akin to saying that eating an extra piece of toast every morning will --> more demand on bread market --> higher demand on farmers --> farmers need to increase wheat production to meet demand --> increased use of genetically modified organisms to increase wheat yield and/or quality --> other food producers use GMOs as well --> massive influx of GMOs on food market --> potential for mutations because scientists are messing with genes --> everyone gets cancer/turns into aliens because they're eating genetically-messed-with food. Oh, and since we're back on the genetics topic, maybe robots will take over the world as well. :p Moral of the story: don't eat that second piece of toast.

     

    3) I don't agree that legalising gay marriage will cause would-have-been-straight people to "turn gay". On a similar vein, studies have shown that asking a depressed person whether they have ever considered self harm/suicide does not increase their risk of doing so by planting the idea in their head. I realise this isn't quite the same thing, but do you really think that the legalisation of gay marriage is psychosocially powerful enough to make straight people gay, when the mention of self harm/suicide isn't enough to push severely depressed people over the edge? 



    #191 MishaZheleza

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    Posted 03 August 2013 - 03:23 AM

    1) I am amused that people seem to think referencing animal behaviour is a bad thing (a la cannibalism) when animal behaviour supports homosexuality, yet can simultaneously argue that homosexuality is bad because it's "against nature".

    We're just animals at the end of the day, and not even the most intelligent.



    #192 Grandmaster

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    Posted 04 August 2013 - 05:36 AM

    Okay I'm going to seriously try to explain to you why what you're saying is complete and utter nonsense. If you still think that robots are going to replace humans because of gay marriage, I'm done you can keep thinking that. It doesn't really effect me one way or the other.

     

    1. This decline doesn't have anything to do with people being gay. It has everything to do with straight couples overall having fewer children. They're not giving preference for machines because there are fewer humans. The western nations have been turning away from blue collar production work and subsidizing new technology for a very long time, these articles prove nothing. More western nations were adopting white collar jobs and more technical jobs because we've advanced our technology to where production can mainly be done by machines. It was never because there aren't enough people to do it, it's simply because it's cheaper to use machine automation. There are more high skilled jobs that are going to be available when the baby boomer retire/die off, but these aren't blue collar assembly jobs, they're technical jobs that will require a high level of education and skill. We definitely already have enough people to fill these positions, but not all of them have access to the education to develop the skills required. Not to mention there are other countries with more than enough people who could fill these positions. But that would require these western countries to not be nationalistic assholes with xenophobic immigration policies.

     

    2. Thanks to birth control. Not gay people, gay marriage being legal isn't going to make straight people have less kids, they're doing that all on their own. In fact many gay couples want to adopt the kids that straight people have and can't take care of but they can't because their relationships aren't recognized by the government. Single people are discouraged from adopting kids and people below a certain income are discouraged from adopting kids. If gay couples were recognized they would be able to have a joint income and be recognized as a couple making it easier to adopt children. It would also help if these agencies weren't filled with homophobic fuckwits. This is ignoring the fact that women are capable of birthing their own kids, and gay men can hire surrogates. I have a friend, she is a gay woman, she has 7 children that she gave birth to. Nothing about being gay makes people have less children. Having children is a personal choice for everyone, not just straight people.

     

    3. Your own article states that  there's no numerical proof that the number of women who do this is even significant. You still have yet to prove that gay marriage is increasing the population of gay people.  You still have yet to prove that any of this has any effect at all on the number of children being born. That's because they don't. The nations that have gay marriage are more developed nations. These developed nations have access to contraceptives. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH GAY PEOPLE. IT HAS TO DO WITH STRAIGHT PEOPLE WANTING LESS CHILDREN AND USING BIRTH CONTROL.

     

    As a debater, you are supposed to explain why arguments are invalid, not explain why arguments are nonsense. Replace emotive words such as "nonsense" with more neutral and reasonable word "invalid" will do better to convince critical readers.

     

    1 & 2. Decline in birth rate was a direct response to the statement you mentioned earlier "Straight people will stop having kids they can't take care of". I have not attributed decline in birth rate to homosexuals since homosexuals can't reproduce without technology aided tools. This decline together with the gradual disappearance of baby boomer generation will already cause population decline in the next few years. Adding to that, the issue of gay marriage will continue to aggravate this problem if number of people engaging in homosexual acts continues to rise. The support for automation was precisely due to the utilitarian argument that you have proposed and that is also the reason why the use of robots will be able to justify in terms of utilitarian argument when the population decline is going to pose serious labour problems to the world. We may be just quickening this development with the addition of gay marriage and the effects associated with it.

     

    3. Gay marriage is not increasing the number of people who have natural tendency to be attracted to same sex. But it is increasing the number of people having homosexual acts. Do all gays necessarily engage in homosexual acts? There are gays who turned straight or abstain from homosexual acts. But given legalisation of gay marriage, there will likely be increase in the number of gays engaging in homosexual acts and less number of gays who turned straight or abstain from homosexual acts. It will also further impact the nurture environment and influence the people who may not have natural tendency to be attracted to same sex, resulting in more people engaging in homosexual acts.

     

    This thread has moved a lot since I was here o.O Currently busy with uni work and don't have time to do more than skim everyone's arguments (much less write out a comprehensive rebuttal/argument like when I was on holidays last time), but all I can say is...lol.

     

    1) I am amused that people seem to think referencing animal behaviour is a bad thing (a la cannibalism) when animal behaviour supports homosexuality, yet can simultaneously argue that homosexuality is bad because it's "against nature".

     

    2) The robots-taking-over-the-world argument is still making giant leaps in logic. "If you allow X, it is only a small step to proceed to Y" is NOT a valid argument unless you can demonstrate why it would be such a small step. I'm not denying that it is possible, but it doesn't mean it will happen. We cloned Dolly the Sheep, but we don't have human clones running around everywhere. If you were to ask me whether sheep-cloning or gay marriage were more likely to lead to human cloning, I'd bet my life on the former. Your argument is akin to saying that eating an extra piece of toast every morning will --> more demand on bread market --> higher demand on farmers --> farmers need to increase wheat production to meet demand --> increased use of genetically modified organisms to increase wheat yield and/or quality --> other food producers use GMOs as well --> massive influx of GMOs on food market --> potential for mutations because scientists are messing with genes --> everyone gets cancer/turns into aliens because they're eating genetically-messed-with food. Oh, and since we're back on the genetics topic, maybe robots will take over the world as well. :p Moral of the story: don't eat that second piece of toast.

     

    3) I don't agree that legalising gay marriage will cause would-have-been-straight people to "turn gay". On a similar vein, studies have shown that asking a depressed person whether they have ever considered self harm/suicide does not increase their risk of doing so by planting the idea in their head. I realise this isn't quite the same thing, but do you really think that the legalisation of gay marriage is psychosocially powerful enough to make straight people gay, when the mention of self harm/suicide isn't enough to push severely depressed people over the edge? 

     

    1) Referencing animal behaviour is an invalid argument since it does not serve any purpose to justify any actions in the face of human laws. Animal laws and human laws are on completely different tracks.

     

    2) While many technology is advanced by significant scientific breakthroughs, there are a number of technology being slowed down or hindered not by scientific breakthroughs but by controversial issues. Cloning, mass production of robots to replace human, stem cell research, genetic engineering, etc. Dolly was cloned as early as 1996 but until so far, the technique has only be used on animals, not even clinical trials on humans. The amount of research in that field are also quite limited precisely because of the controversial issues. (https://en.wikipedia...i/Dolly_(sheep)). in March 2005 a non-binding United Nations Declaration on Human Cloning, calling for the ban of all forms of Human Cloning contrary to human dignity, was adopted. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_cloning). For robots, the ethical issues associated with robots can be found under "Robots in Society" subheading (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot). The level of advances in robots has long gone beyond automated manual tasks. However, there are still a lot of disagreements in ethics front for the robot to advance to the stage of replacing humans. The wider adoption of technology aided tools for gay couples will help to advance in this science ethics front. Technology aided tools such as IVF have been quite expensive and with wider adoption, it will drain a lot of resources in that areas and weighing on utilitarian arguments, robots would be cheaper to produce in the long run with economies of scale for mass production. Even if gay couples don't go for reproduction, they will still aggravate the problem of population decline with no reproduction and robots will still come into the picture as a viable solution for shortage of labour.

     

    3) It was already mentioned earlier that homosexual acts are influenced by both natural tendency and nurture environment (http://en.wikipedia....ual_orientation).

     

    Some quotes from the source:

     

    Quote 1: The proportion of adolescents reporting same-sex attraction is significantly higher than the proportion reporting same-sex sexual experience. In addition to attraction, opportunity has to present itself. Since opportunity is clearly socially structured, our expectation is that social influences should be stronger for behavior than attraction. He suggests possible socialization experiences might shape desire, but not subsequent adult sexual orientation. It is possible that genetic influence could operate on the pathway from attraction to behavior.

     

    Quote 2: Researchers have provided evidence that gay men report having had less loving and more rejecting fathers, and closer relationships with their mothers, than non-gay men. Some researchers think this may indicate that childhood family experiences are important determinants to homosexuality, or that parents behave this way in response to gender-variant traits in a child.



    #193 Mishelle

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    Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:45 AM

    As a debater, you are supposed to explain why arguments are invalid, not explain why arguments are nonsense. Replace emotive words such as "nonsense" with more neutral and reasonable word "invalid" will do better to convince critical readers.

     

     

     

    Actually no. As a debater YOU are supposed to prove your own arguments and facts work a lot better than opinions and theories.


    Edited by Mishelle, 04 August 2013 - 06:45 AM.


    #194 kittycat

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    Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:48 AM

    I think we are forgetting here that prohibiting same sex marriage does nothing to prevent same sex relationships. I do not think this is a debate about which aspects of being human should be policed by the state. 

     

    Can we stop using essentialist arguments like "turning straight" you can't be "gay" or "straight" ... identities are performed not imagined 



    #195 MishaZheleza

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    Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:51 AM

    I think we are forgetting here that prohibiting same sex marriage does nothing to prevent same sex relationships. I do not think this is a debate about which aspects of being human should be policed by the state. 

     

    Can we stop using essentialist arguments like "turning straight" you can't be "gay" or "straight" ... identities are performed not imagined 

    And while we're at it, can we realize that therapy doesn't 'turn someone straight'? Therapy can condition you to think that who you are is wrong, that it's bad to be gay, but it cannot magically turn you straight. When I wake up a bit more this morning, I can get some more sources on that.



    #196 Drakonid

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    Posted 04 August 2013 - 07:21 AM

    Actually no. As a debater YOU are supposed to prove your own arguments and facts work a lot better than opinions and theories.



    #197 Clipper

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    Posted 04 August 2013 - 06:25 PM

    I, for one, will welcome the rise of the gay robo-overlords.

     

    But seriously. I've read through the entire thread and also read every one of your posts, Grandmaster. Have yet to understand even one of them, mostly because I don't see any real negatives behind what you list as the 'cons' of homosexuality. Do you really think it would be the gay community that pushes humanity into things like cloning and robots? I believe such beings would come into existence if the technology were developed commonly (big 'if' there) regardless of whether homosexuality even existed because humanity is always looking to 'improve' itself through technology and the progress of science. Don't blame the gays for all scientific progress, eh? I also doubt the number of gay people would dramatically rise if gay relationships became openly commonplace because being gay is, in my humble opinion and in that of many others, a matter of nature and not nurture. Even if the amount did rise; so what? Do we begin preparing for the gayocalypse?

     

    Maybe I'm a little dim as I have a learning disability so debate tends to be hard for me to read through, but this is an issue I'm close to so I felt the need to comment. Also, I'd ask that you please stop comparing stealing and being gay as though they're similar traits, both undesirable and to be removed. Or at least use other (possibly) both nature-and-nurture traits such as skill with music as well as this negative one to make your comparisons. 



    #198 Grandmaster

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    Posted 05 August 2013 - 06:51 AM

    I realised that there is some difference in the expectation on the number of people engaging in homosexual acts.

     

    Maybe you can post yours, then we would have a clearer picture.

     

    My expectations would be as follows:

     

    Prior to LGBT community: <1% world population engages in homosexual acts.

    LGBT community: 1-2% of world population engages in homosexual acts.

    Partial legalisation of gay marriage (current stage): 2-3% of world population engages in homosexual acts.

    Legalisation of gay marriage globally: 5-10% of world population engages in homosexual acts.



    #199 shrouded

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    Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:08 AM

    I realised that there is some difference in the expectation on the number of people engaging in homosexual acts.

     

    Maybe you can post yours, then we would have a clearer picture.

     

    My expectations would be as follows:

     

    Prior to LGBT community: <1% world population engages in homosexual acts.

    LGBT community: 1-2% of world population engages in homosexual acts.

    Partial legalisation of gay marriage (current stage): 2-3% of world population engages in homosexual acts.

    Legalisation of gay marriage globally: 5-10% of world population engages in homosexual acts.

     

     

     

    mmmm dat totally made up data



    #200 Gunar

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    Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:08 AM

    I realised that there is some difference in the expectation on the number of people engaging in homosexual acts.

     

    Maybe you can post yours, then we would have a clearer picture.

     

    My expectations would be as follows:

     

    Prior to LGBT community: <1% world population engages in homosexual acts.

    LGBT community: 1-2% of world population engages in homosexual acts.

    Partial legalisation of gay marriage (current stage): 2-3% of world population engages in homosexual acts.

    Legalisation of gay marriage globally: 5-10% of world population engages in homosexual acts.

    And what is wrong with that?  I can assume you are homophobic from your posts 




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