478 replies to this topic

[Ali]

Pro-choice. I can't bet on my capacity to love under duress.

 

If we're going to play the sanctity of life card, there are better places to direct your attention before abortion rights.

[Trichomes]

If this is a matter of morality, the "intrinsic value" of an embryo should be of no importance. The only person making irrelevant analogies here is you, Nitro.

 

Also, thanks for blatantly ignoring practically everyone who has made a valid point for the sake of your circular reasoning.

[Trichomes]

Others are trying to prove that embryos have no value, so when you destroy them, there is no moral issue or something along that line.

 

This is because values/morality are totally subjective, and vary from situation to situation, which was already mentioned. Just because you personally value potential life (to the extreme that it should be preserved no matter the cost) does not mean that everyone places the same value on what they consider to be a mass of cells (because scientifically that's what an embryo is). And then of course there are people who do consider abortion immoral, but choose to go through with it anyway because the cons outweigh the pros when it comes to bringing a child into the world.

 

Many of us in this thread believe it's more immoral to force a woman to do something she does not want with her body than it is to terminate an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy. These decisions should be made on a case by case basis, by the pregnant woman herself. Are you really so privileged that you can't even imagine the circumstances that would lead someone to make this difficult decision, and to put yourself in her shoes?

[redlion]

I am simply suggesting that some of the analogies used to back your point is not relevant to what is being debated. While not the most courteous way of debating, it is a valid way to prove my point. Onward.

Clearly you don't understand what valid means. While you look that one up, also look up soundness. Good philosophical principles that you're missing entirely.
 

If the entire concept of value is all in your head, then try and live according to that belief. Go on, I'll wait.

Wut.

I didn't say that. You're putting up a strawman and calling it me.
 

Really? The following phrases makes sense:
I will never be good at cello unless I practice a lot.
I will never lose weight until I stop overeating.
I will never eat whole tomatoes unless forced to.

Clearly you don't know what a logical fallacy is.

In this thread I can name at least four that you've used (affirming the consequent, illicit affirmative, argument from fallacy, appeal to probability). Here's an extensive list for reference. What you keep coming up with are literally (and I mean "literally" literally) bad arguments.

There is a legitimate viewpoint that you could be defending. But you're not doing it very well.
 

Fine. I'll use the analogy without messing with it to prove my point, because it does actually represent abortion in a sufficient manner. The analogy was originally used to show how stopping making a cake isn't destroying a cake.

No. The analogy doesn't have anything to do with destroying the cake. You haven't done anything but got the ingredients. That's the cake mix. You continue to change the dilemma I'm setting up, thereby ignoring the point I'm making about timing, effort and ingredients.

The cake mix is like an embryo in that both need time and effort to mature into cakepeople. Without the effort of a baker, the cake doesn't get made. Without the effort of a mother's womb and a bunch of doctors and nurses, a baby doesn't get made. That's the analogy.
 

1) The cake mix itself has value, although it is less than what a baked cake is valued for.
2) Stopping making a cake and destroying a cake after it is done both destroys the value of the cake mix, which is irreversible
3) Embryos are just like cake mixes, they both have value (proved a bit above).
4) Destroying embryos through abortion is destroying the value that it has.

1) Sure. So do cells.
2) If you're trying to liken this to abortion, sure those cells are usually not used for much. But I wrote a paper once on embryonic stem cells that are harvested from unwanted embryos. That's value not lost.
3) Repeating your old point (1) is not a new point (3).
4) Again, repeating your old point (2) isn't a new point (4), but as to destruction of all value, see above.

At this juncture, I'd like to reiterate that expected and actual are rarely the same. From the projected earnings of the stock market, to the sex of a child, to the Yankees (against all odds) fucking up the play offs again this year, you cannot place that much value on something that hasn't happened yet. The event that creates a person in the legal sense is birth, right?
 

The potato argument is indeed invalid in this discussion. I will once again repeat my points.
1) Potatoes can become many things after being processed, from chips to french fries to baked potatoes
2) Nomenclature is very different for something that can become many different things
3) Embryos can only become one thing after being processed: a human baby 
4) Thus, the nomenclature for embryos is different from potatoes

1) Yes, many things. So can embryos. The fact that they have a primary biological purpose doesn't belie that fact.

I'll stop because it's getting tedious.

[Boggart]

Yeesh.

 

As someone who hopes to be in health-care, most people in the field would be inclined to be pro-choice for it is NOT our duty and overstepping our bounds to make any woman keep an unwanted pregnancy

 

That being said, if you a clinician feel that you are not morally comfortable, you are not obligated to perform that service. Even if you normally are pro-choice but then a certain patient irks you, you can refuse them assuming that you refer them to someone else.

 

I personally am pro-choice; every woman should have the right to choose. I do, however, feel some people use abortion as a case of birth control instead of for more serious situations. But I would rather have a woman terminated an unwanted pregnancy than have a child subject to bad living condition their entire life.

[Eefi]

Relevant

 

I don't know how to embed videos here.. orz

Edited by Eefi, 07 February 2014 - 01:16 AM.

[redlion]

Relevant
 
I don't know how to embed videos here.. orz

Just post the raw URL. Codex is smart, it'll do it for you

[Prisca]

LIFE! I am thankful for my life, my sons life, my moms life, and all my family and friends live's... to think, if my great grandma was aborted, i would not exist. Abortion can be VERY traumatic to a woman, no matter what her circumstances. If i was anybody else, i would recommend, don't vote until you have done a lot of research and know all the facts.. "women's rights" is not a good reason to kill a baby!!

[Sweeney]

LIFE! I am thankful for my life, my sons life, my moms life, and all my family and friends live's... to think, if my great grandma was aborted, i would not exist. Abortion can be VERY traumatic to a woman, no matter what her circumstances. If i was anybody else, i would recommend, don't vote until you have done a lot of research and know all the facts.. "women's rights" is not a good reason to kill a baby!!

Ugh.

[Dan]

Ugh.

 

Now, now. Respecting other people's opinions, etc etc...

[Boggart]

Now, now. Respecting other people's opinions, etc etc...

Shouldn't you respect his opinion regarding her opinion?
 

Or as he put it, "ugh"?

[Sweeney]

Now, now. Respecting other people's opinions, etc etc...

Stupid, ignorant opinions are not deserving of respect.

[Prisca]

Ugh.

 

Stupid, ignorant opinions are not deserving of respect.

 

rude.

Edited by Prisca, 21 March 2014 - 07:24 AM.

[Elindoril]

REALLY? wow, judged! i thought there would be a little maturity on this board.. i guess i shouldn't assume.

You shouldn't assume that abortions are very traumatic for a women regardless of circumstances.

[Prisca]

i didnt, i have worked with women post abortion for years.

[Sweeney]

rude.

Not half as "rude" as your opinions on Women's Health.

[Boggart]

i didnt, i have worked with women post abortion for years.

 

That's a sub-set of the population. You can't speak for other people and patronize "women's rights" as if it's not a serious issue.

 

So do you feel it's never okay to "kill a baby", which implies that the child is already born since otherwise it would be a fetus and i don't think many of us are advocating the termination of a to-term pregnancy..

[Sweeney]

i didnt, i have worked with women post abortion for years.

In what context?

[Frizzle]

She stood outside clinics with signs...

[Prisca]

I counseled at a pregnancy support centre... the biggest crowed is those who have previously had an abortion. I am entitled to what i believe btw, no amount of criticism or rude remarks will ever change that. I have never protested. You can go on arguing about how right you are, I am not really interested.

[Sweeney]

I counseled at a pregnancy support centre... the biggest crowed is those who have previously had an abortion. I am entitled to what i believe btw, no amount of criticism or rude remarks will ever change that. I have never protested. You can go on arguing about how right you are, I am not really interested.

 

So you're basing your opinion that abortion affects people negatively on the fact that you work with people who seek support after having an abortion?

 

Don't you think that sample is a little biased?

 

@Prisca, I should warn you that arguing with Sweeney on this subject is extremely hard and demoralizing. The solution is NOT to fight fire with fire when you think Sweeney is being rude. Just look at this thread a couple pages back

@Sweeney, you could at least provide an explanation to why you think "ugh" to Prisca's opinion instead of leaving a one word comment that doesn't provide any useful information.

And now I shall take my leave without providing more insight on the subject at hand because I have already said what I think a few pages back.

 

You seriously need to stop sticking your nose into my interactions with other people. Your interruptions are neither warranted, nor appreciated.

[KaibaSama]

@Prisca

May I ask, what if the mother's life is in danger, or the baby is so severely disabled it wouldn't really have much of a life at all? Or if it would die shortly after birth? Do you support abortion then? Or is it no across the board, even when someone could die without one? And then what about rape? Will you force a woman to carry a reminder of her horrific attack?

Edited by Satsuki, 21 March 2014 - 08:04 PM.

[Prisca]

I have been asked that question before. If you are only asking to judge my opinion, i have no response. If you are asking because that is your current situation, then you need to seek help from a trained professional in a formal setting. If you are genuinely interested in the answer, there is plenty of literature available online that can help you out. I personally would never choose to have an abortion, irrespective of the situation.

[Emily]

I have been asked that question before. If you are only asking to judge my opinion, i have no response. If you are asking because that is your current situation, then you need to seek help from a trained professional in a formal setting. If you are genuinely interested in the answer, there is plenty of literature available online that can help you out. I personally would never choose to have an abortion, irrespective of the situation.

 

What if the pregnancy was putting your life in danger? Some people choose abortion because they could die if they go through with it.

[Emily]

Some people do die to give birth to the child, so it is kind of a question of whether you would value the child's life more than ones own. If one chooses to abort in that situation, it would still be am immoral thing to do, but I can empathize with why one would do so. Lesser of two evils again

 

It's not immoral just because you say it's immoral. It's a woman's body and a woman's choice. If she doesn't want to be pregnant then she has the right to not be pregnant - no matter what reason. It's not your decision, it's not a politician's decision, it's not anyone's decision but the woman's, and I don't think you or anyone else has the right to judge what a woman does with her body.