334 replies to this topic

[Sweeney]

Billions of women have both had a career and a child, it's not exactly impossible. Yes their career may be dented in comparison to a mans if they decide to have a child, but a man doesn't take two years off full pay and leave others to pick up the work.

Billions, Lee?
And if women are taking time off paid for maternity leave, then it's not going to affect their salary that much, is it?

I feel like you might be exaggerating a little

[luvsmyncis]

Billions of women have both had a career and a child, it's not exactly impossible. Yes their career may be dented in comparison to a mans if they decide to have a child, but a man doesn't take two years off full pay and leave others to pick up the work.

 

Where do women get two years off work and still get paid? At my work, a woman can have up to 6 weeks paid maternity leave and 6 weeks unpaid. 

[Strategist]

Where do women get two years off work and still get paid? At my work, a woman can have up to 6 weeks paid maternity leave and 6 weeks unpaid. 

Here, it's 6 months government funded, then any amount after that if you have the leave to cover it The father even gets Paternity leave pay now! I scored 2 weeks paid leave from the government when we had Xavier.

[Frizzle]

Billions, Lee?
And if women are taking time off paid for maternity leave, then it's not going to affect their salary that much, is it?

I feel like you might be exaggerating a little

Through out the course of history of course

It doesn't affect they salary directly but it can hinder career progress. My friend is now 4 years backtracked for promotion because she got knocked up.

Where do women get two years off work and still get paid? At my work, a woman can have up to 6 weeks paid maternity leave and 6 weeks unpaid.

My job is incredibly female-unfriendly for the lack of a better term but is very gracious as it has to be. Can't have pregnant ladies tackle crackheads and violent scumbags.

Here, it's 6 months government funded, then any amount after that if you have the leave to cover it The father even gets Paternity leave pay now! I scored 2 weeks paid leave from the government when we had Xavier.

I think we get 2 days paternity leave paid. If we're lucky.

[Sweeney]

Through out the course of history of course

It doesn't affect they salary directly but it can hinder career progress. My friend is now 4 years backtracked for promotion because she got knocked up.

Right... and taking a month or two off for shitting out a baby probably shouldn't set your career back four years. Which will be affecting her salary

[Frizzle]

Well it isn't directly discriminatory against women, it's just the way the promotion board is set up. I know one guy who had to re-do his last 4 years of "acting up" in his promotion due to the recent budget cuts.

[rapmasterme]

That is not what your report says.
 

Ah yes. A couple decides to have children, forcing the woman to take maternity leave, and forcing the man to take paternity leave... Woah, wait. No. That's not how it happens at all.
Women are stunted in their career path because of their potential choice to have children, for a start, because they might one day take maternity leave - not necessarily because they have taken it.
Can you explain why a woman has to choose between having a child and furthering her career, when a man does not have to make that choice?
 

This link does not not back up the final sentence of your last paragraph, if that was your intent. I mean, it's great that women aged 18-22 in metropolitan areas are outearning men aged 18-22 in metropolitan areas... But it does not mean that "Women who don't drop out of the work force on average make more then men".

Worth noting also that that WSJ article states the following:
"At every education level, from high-school dropouts to Ph.D.s, women continue to earn less than their male peers."

Is the WSJ credible enough?
 

Good lord. I didn't say that "nobody says [old boys' clubs are] a problem", I said that nobody says they are the entirety of the problem - which is the argument that your original report claims to refute. I wonder if there were any women on the committee that assembled that report.

 

 

Sorry I don't know how to break up the post to make the response easier to read.

 

Anyways as to maternity leave it is not really a cultural thing, it is that women are the ones that have babies, so their are real reasons that maternity leave exists and it is never forced, which is illegal because of the pregnancy discrimination act of 1978. As to the potential to take maternity leave, this has happened because women choose to drop out of the workforce. If it was because sometimes women take a very short maternity leave I doubt the wage gap would be as high, though it is almost impossible to test this.

 

Sorry I was guilty of some bias as I tend to see the world through the eyes of a 20 something living in a metropolitan area, but you are right that that doesn't apply to everyone. I still stand by the point that just because their is not necessarily a gender bias, just because there are factors that the report did not find. The factors could very well be gender bias, or they could just as easily be something else, but feminism often sees issues through a gendered light and assume that because their is a difference it must be due to some sort of bias, which is obviously faulty logic, although it is very hard to prove a gender bias exists as their are a lot of factors in hiring and pay decisions.

 

Also about "nobody" thinking that women's problems fall squarely in the boy's club type problems, I think it is very reckless and dishonest to make claims that try to speak for an entire group people. Words like nobody and everybody, don't really have a place in debates except for hyperbole or misleading people which is a very fine line especially in a medium such as the internet where tone, body language, and facial expressions are absent. Beside that, just because you ar enot making that argument does not mean a lot of people don't, and I have seen the argument applied to a lot of things by feminists.

 

"I wonder if there were any women on the committee that assembled that report"

 

As to this point I think you are attacking the study by speculation, you actually have no idea, but you are implying that their are not, which is not  really fair. Also it does not effect the validity of the study.

Edited by rapmasterme, 25 April 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[Doe]

Why would I want to be in the game, if you play the game all you are gonna find is game players. If you want to find someone who is actually serious you're not gonna find them messing around in the ATL game. 

 

Not at all I'm pretty sure most of the people here that are in relationships don't dish crap out to their SO male or female. Plus no one wants shots fired at them, you've already stated that you treat girls like crap, but don't put up with theirs aren't you kind of talking about yourself there. Boom

Do you live in ATL? No? Didn't think so.

 

Let me break it down for you; the good girls go bad young. All any of them want is a daddy to take care of them and they do their absolute best to capitalize off of their good looks ASAP. Now there are a couple exceptions to this; we have the bible thumping religious weirdos for one, though they really are just as bad only without the sluttiness. Now on the other hand we have the ugly ones; now I have actually dated "ugly" girls, and despite being critized and my social stature dropping several points as a result of even being seen with them, they become so hung up on the high and ego boost I give them that they will do anything, and I do mean ANYTHING, to keep me around. Blackmail, death threats, attempted pregnancy trappings... I've legit had a bitch jumped cause she wouldn't back down. Yet they say they "love" me, does that sound like "love" to you? I go out of my way and put myself in a bad position to give them a shot and they repay it with manipulation, threats, and other bullshit? I'm sorry but bitches like that can die, and if I could snap my fingers and make them all drop dead I would.

 

Now at this time I have actually found an honest to goodness "good girl", we just had sex last night, well now the night before, we hangout again tonight, and we really enjoy each others company. She's cool with me doing my thing, the hustle, and the grind, and she's young so she's malleable. I have nothing but completely honestly good intentions for her, yet I had to fuck her head up good to get her to this point, and it took me flaunting player status and everything else I have going for me to get her to be this obedient. She's smart, etc, etc. She's gonna hold my heart while I make a run at some HUGE game. Now mind you she's nice to me because of everything I represent. I watched her laugh hysterically as she was toying with some poor desperate fucker's head that was chasing her for a long time, granted I don't know the whole story and all that. Still though, if I didn't have serious game this wouldn't even be a thing. See my point? Women are attracted to what we represent, they care about everyone's opinion of us first and foremost. If I was ugly, couldn't make her laugh hysterically, let her push me around (which she tried to do, but I put my foot down), etc etc. She wouldn't give a fuck about me. Again, I am a trophy. I will die one.

OH and you mentioned players; wanna quote a lil something for ya, stud.

 

"Dating is a game, and all the men and women are players"

Edited by Doe, 27 April 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[Speedracer]

Do you live in ATL? No? Didn't think so.

My father is from ATL
 

Now at this time I have actually found an honest to goodness "good girl"

Congratulations? 

[Doe]

My father is from ATL
 

Congratulations? 

Your father grew up in diff times, unless you're REALLY young, before social desensitization, before all the violence, thug culture being predominant, the internet, etc, etc.

 

We'll see. She may turn out to be a piece of shit, or completely psycho, she did put a knife to my throat when we were playing, like I said she's smart so she could just be that well of an actor. All I have to go on right now is my psych analysis, and the "honesty" she's shown me, and the fact her pussy isn't blown to shit.

 

I do have high hopes, but I try to keep my expectations low. She's still playing some games with me, or rather trying to... I'm letting her think my guard's down to see if she tries to take advantage of me.

Edited by Doe, 27 April 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[Ali]

Where do women get two years off work and still get paid? At my work, a woman can have up to 6 weeks paid maternity leave and 6 weeks unpaid. 

Because America is crazy with time off. Your annual leave situation is horrifying compared to here, I wouldn't cope.

 

Statutory Maternity Leave in the UK is 52 weeks made up of 26 weeks "ordinary" leave and 26 weeks "additional" leave which can start up to 11 weeks before the birth. You're automatically eligible for that if you have an employment contract and give the correct notice to your employer. Your employment rights continue during the leave so you have the right to accrue annual leave, be eligible for pay rises etc.

 

You're then eligible for Statutory Maternity Pay for 39 weeks of that 52 as long as you worked for the company for a certain amount of time prior to a certain point in the pregnancy. I can't remember the specifics but it's something like 90% of your earnings for 6 weeks and then a set amount for the remainder. That's the bare minimum that you have to be given, by law. You don't have to take it (although I think you have to 2 weeks off after the birth) but they can't stop you from having it. Plenty of employers have policies that allow for more and will do so that they seem family friendly and that they promote women in the workplace. 

 

Men are eligible for 1 or 2 week Statutory Paternity Leave (and Pay). If the mother returns to work, the father can request Additional Paternity Leave/Pay of up to 26 weeks I believe.

 

-----

 

Mothers in the workplace are tricky; you are automatically doing your career a disservice by taking however much time off because it likely places you behind your peer group. If a colleague starts at the same time and you take a year off to have a baby, that's a huge amount of experience and facetime that they've gained over you. Plus there's the flexibility required upon the return to work; discretionary leave when the child is sick, not being able to work more than 9-5, needing to leave early because of a dentist appointment/parents evening/dance show...

 

Women do have to choose between family and career, but not all that much more than men. It's just that traditional gender roles make it seem more. Aside from pregnancy and the recovery afterwards, there's nothing to stop a woman letting the child have minimal impact on her career. We see that as "choosing". But we don't see men staying in the office until all hours, missing family commitments, not taking paternity leave as "choosing" their career over family, it's just what's expected of them. Ultimately, none of us can have it all - there aren't enough hours in the day for that. If you want a successful career and a wonderful family life, you need a supportive partner or professional help.

[DasBear]

I wanted to stay away from this topic and I know many people will disagree with what I have to say. But, I too have a right to speak and have my voice heard...even if it is an unpopular opinion. I am not trying to attack anyone, but shed some light on a few over looked issues and also share my personal feelings towards the issue. (I am sorry if my writing is bad, English is not my first language)

 

But you see Sweeney, there are two sides here. I could discuss the issues that men face. It's getting quite heated in here so I'm going to drop it after this, and while I believe my behaviour is feminist, I believe that your vehemence towards me isn't. And yes, I am a feminist (just not a perfect one (but then who is?)) so don't tell me I'm not (for the 100th time).

Magical, you're touching on some things that I think is very, very important and should be heard. Men who are abused by their wives are less likely to report abuse. Yes, wives do abuse their husbands and its more common than you think. Men do get raped and sexually abused and often don't speak about it. Men are also held up to unrealistic standards in the media as well. My Father is a retired pediatrician and has now gone into private counseling for the last 12 years, 80% of his patients are men, nearly all of them have been abused sexually. Surprisingly, there isn't many options out there for abused men such as free clinics or places for them to go like a shelter, if they feel unsafe at home.

Feminist have done alot. Actually, women are treated a lot better than men in North America, don't believe me?
Less likely to be homeless, Less likely to be unemployed, less likely to abuse drugs, More likely to be helped if injured, Better education, Given extra attention in class, Most likely to have a teacher of their gender, Woman Studies departmetns, Exclusive school groups and clubs, Less likely to be killed in war (enlistment), Less likely to live in proverty, General immunity to sexism allegations, Draft immunity, Cheaper health care, Reproductive rights (though some places are trying to take it away, but its still available), Women shelters, Not assumed to be pedophile around kids, More & better contraceptive options, Safer work conditions, Postive sexual encouragement, Better empolyed for same experience, Gynocentrism, Less Likely to drop out of college, Divorce court bias (this one pisses me off alot, cause I see some real scumbag mothers gain custody and end up neglecting and abusing the children), Higher college acceptance, More scholarships available...I could keep going.

 

I don't want todays feminism, keep it away from me. I believe in equality! Not entitlements and supremacy. Tumblr-feminist are single-handedly killng something that was once a good thing, it has now become a hateful, sexist, corrupt group that disregards peoples issues do to "privilage". I cannot stand feminist double standards either.

 

What I do support is Woman Rights Activist. Woman who seek the fair treatment for other women around the world where the need for change is truly dire. Places like India, were 2-3 year old girls are being pimped and raped. My Father did a lot human rights work in places like India and Africa, providing health care. Many times when he came back from these places after 3-4 months, he was so horrified and tramatized from the things he had to see. So while feminist are crying about how woman are potrayed in video games, little girls are being raped and married off under the age of 10 in the middle east.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=F41qYEF62jg

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=MNK-e6nnFGY

 

Please do not take this as I hate feminist. I do not hate anyone. I dislike what the feminist movement has become today. I support Woman Rights Activist. I support equality, because to me the term feminism no longer means equal rights. I now see it as something that has become misused and corrupt.

Edited by DasBear, 27 April 2014 - 03:59 PM.

[Sweeney]

Anyways as to maternity leave it is not really a cultural thing, it is that women are the ones that have babies, so their are real reasons that maternity leave exists and it is never forced, which is illegal because of the pregnancy discrimination act of 1978. As to the potential to take maternity leave, this has happened because women choose to drop out of the workforce. If it was because sometimes women take a very short maternity leave I doubt the wage gap would be as high, though it is almost impossible to test this.

Really? Women have babies, so it's up to them to deal with the fallout of that?
I'll simplify it: It is not equitable for women to be forced to choose between having a baby, and avoiding deferring their career advancement, when men do not have to make that choice.

Sorry I was guilty of some bias as I tend to see the world through the eyes of a 20 something living in a metropolitan area, but you are right that that doesn't apply to everyone. I still stand by the point that just because their is not necessarily a gender bias, just because there are factors that the report did not find. The factors could very well be gender bias, or they could just as easily be something else, but feminism often sees issues through a gendered light and assume that because their is a difference it must be due to some sort of bias, which is obviously faulty logic, although it is very hard to prove a gender bias exists as their are a lot of factors in hiring and pay decisions.

The average woman earns less than the average man.
That goes for statistics crossing all other conceivable demographic boundaries - how can you argue that the difference is not down to gender bias?
 

Also about "nobody" thinking that women's problems fall squarely in the boy's club type problems, I think it is very reckless and dishonest to make claims that try to speak for an entire group people. Words like nobody and everybody, don't really have a place in debates except for hyperbole or misleading people which is a very fine line especially in a medium such as the internet where tone, body language, and facial expressions are absent. Beside that, just because you ar enot making that argument does not mean a lot of people don't, and I have seen the argument applied to a lot of things by feminists.

You are misrepresenting my original statement. Please go back and reread it, and respond to what I actually said.
 

"I wonder if there were any women on the committee that assembled that report"

 
As to this point I think you are attacking the study by speculation, you actually have no idea, but you are implying that their are not, which is not  really fair. Also it does not effect the validity of the study.

That wasn't a speculative argument. Just a comment.
Having researched it, though, it appears that CONSAD does not have any women on its research staff. I believe that does have an effect on the validity of the study.

[Atonement]

First ever post here.

Just wanted to say that equality shouldn't be a one way street.

 

I'm an equalist. I believe in equalism.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalism

[Sweeney]

First ever post here.

Just wanted to say that equality shouldn't be a one way street.
 
I'm an equalist. I believe in equalism.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalism

Equality can't be a one way street. "Equalism" is attempting to address a problem with feminism that doesn't actually exist.

[Atonement]

No there is a problem with feminism, the fact that it's gender equality *for women*.

There's no feminists in a house fire.
 

This, is the problem that feminism doesn't address:

Edited by Atonement, 28 April 2014 - 08:29 PM.

[Sweeney]

No there is a problem with feminism, the fact that it's gender equality *for women*.

There's no such thing as a feminist in a house fire.

 

"Gender equality for women" is a nonsensical phrase. Feminism is not "for women", it's for everyone.

 

And I have no idea what you're meaning to imply by your second sentence.

[Atonement]

I know it's nonsensical. That's why I think the idea of feminism is absurd.

 

Where's the feminists fighting for rape laws to remove the "penetration" requirement for girl-on-guy rape?

 

Where are the feminists fighting for male rights, period.

Oh sure, they're covering the bases of things like paternal leave because it supports their own right for maternal leave.

It is, by definition, gender equality *for women*.

Edited by Atonement, 28 April 2014 - 08:36 PM.

[Turnip]

This, is the problem that feminism doesn't address:

 
I can't even watch all of this, what a fucking baby :V
>Wahhhh something isn't catering to men for once in our lives!! I'm going to stand up on a stage and cry about it in front of all these people, that'll show those women who's boss!! Men need to be the center of attention at all times
 

Where are the feminists fighting for male rights, period.

 
*tips fifteen fedoras at all once*

[Sweeney]

I know it's nonsensical. That's why I think the idea of feminism is absurd.

 

Where's the feminists fighting for rape laws to remove the "penetration" requirement for girl-on-guy rape?

 

Where are the feminists fighting for male rights, period.

Oh sure, they're covering the bases of things like paternal leave because it supports their own right for maternal leave.

It is, by definition, gender equality *for women*.

 

As far as I'm aware, legal definitions of rape all include a penetration clause. Non-penetrative rape is defined as sexual assault. So, I mean, I don't know any personally, but I bet there are women fighting for the removal of those clauses somewhere. I've never seen any men campaigning for it either.

 

Let's be honest, "men's rights" is a little bit meaningless. Perhaps you could help by being more specific.

Which rights of men are being systematically contravened by society, legislation and/or anything else?

 

Aside from paternity rights, which apparently don't count because you're not allowed to campaign for the rights of two groups at once without it being some kind of absurd conflict of interest?

 

It's not gender equality for women "by definition". "By definition", fighting for equality means that one group has fewer representative rights in society than another. Fighting for equality means fighting for that group with fewer rights. Feminists don't want to deny men rights - they don't want to raise women onto a pedestal. They want equality. Fairness. A level playing field.

[Gandalf]

I'm not sure if feminism has the right connotations...that word brings up an extreme view, I think.

 

Males ARE more privileged in most modern societies, but there are issues on their end too that are often overlooked (and a lot of feminists fail to address).

 

But I keep reading about things like how emails sent from prospective research students to professors are ignored because of gender, how sometimes resumes from women are overlooked because of gender, how women still make much less than their male counterparts for doing the same job, how maternity leave is pitiful at best in the US as if to punish the woman for bringing new life into the world (and then if she DOES choose her career over a family life she's called "cold" or something and can't win either way), how if a woman is harassed or worse because of her clothing it's HER fault...

 

You can't tell me that's fair.

 

I also don't think it's fair to attack women for complaining about these issues, but every time these arguments come up the woman is "bitchy" or something.

 

P.S. Name your daughters some gender-neutral name so at least they won't toss her resume into the paper shredder at first opportunity.

[Grandmaster]

I just feel that feminist have some connotations that the emphasis is on the females. If a more neutral term such as fighting for gender equality is used, then it may gather more support.

[Eefi]

P.S. Name your daughters some gender-neutral name so at least they won't toss her resume into the paper shredder at first opportunity.

I have a name that could be either female or male because that information is lost in translation. Most of the time when I write people emails (e.g. to make oral exam appointments) they reply with "Mr." and assume that I'm male.

 

Except you're supposed to add a photo to your resume around here. I need to look it up whether that has changed but my guess is not.