163 replies to this topic

[Galadriel]

Saw a rant on facebook which left me curious. Jews- are you still offended by Hitler, Nazi's, swastikas etc?

 

If yes, to what degree and why? Sure- I get that the holocaust was a crime against humanity, but it is the past now and I am, on average, a believer of 'we are only offended by that which we allow to offend us'.

 

The opinions of non-jews are also welcome.

[Fikri]

mind sharing that rant?

 

i'm not anti-semitic but i come from a society that is one.

Edited by Stuck, 26 May 2014 - 05:18 AM.

[Waser Lave]

I'm not Jewish but when your group of people has been persecuted for hundreds of years and comes close to being systematically wiped out I imagine that feeling doesn't go away very quickly...especially with the recent resurgence of right-wing politics in Europe.

[Galadriel]

The rant was along the following lines:

 

A jewellery shop is making swastika belly rings- the swastikas are intended to invoke the hindu/buddhist meaning of peace. Girl basically says "I don't care that swastikas have a meaning predating that of Nazi Germany- I am a jew and this is offensive."

Jeweller says "You are being ignorant and arrogant. Get over it."

 

Another example: I was watching come dine with me the other day and a man said he would like to have had dinner with Hitler- given the chance. A jewish woman at the dinner table immediately got extremely offended by the fact that this man would like to speak/sit at a table with Hitler.

 

I find both of the above examples to show over-sensitivity of the Jewish persons. 

[Leeroy]

i am not really a history person and think i watched too much south park for my own good,

 

i feel maybe the younger modern Jewish youth would handle it better.

 

but there is a fine line between if those stuff offend them.

 

it depends highly on context and situation ..

 

but for me if i were to tell a Jew friend of my age (twenties) about such stuff, i would hope he will take it lightly

 

however i would tip-toe such topic when coming across the older Jewish group

[Magical]

I'm Jewish through ancestry (mid 1800s). But, in the context of this issue, I'll say yes and no.

 

Yes - Conditional, when the subject matter of Jewish-Nazi history is taken out of context, used humorously, or made light of, yes, I take offense (Not as a Jew, but as a member of humanity).

 

No - I think the history of these genocidal acts should be spread earth wide, taken seriously. I find that due to the older generation of surviving Jews through the War are much more sensitive. Of course, much of this is due to trauma experienced through the events and second-hand experiences. The Post-traumatic stress that most (if not all) experienced, would likely cause such reaction.

 

Overall, I think we need to be careful with this subject. Taking the next person's feelings into consideration are most important.

i feel maybe the younger modern Jewish youth would handle it better.

 

For sure. They/we are much more likely to be less reactive towards lower sensitive comments, such as the jeweler example and the come dine with me example.

 

 

 

I think we(humanity) should try and sympathise with the Jews who are quick to take offense. After all, one of the most heinous acts of history was carried out, specifically, against their race. It's pure evil and any type of association with this, be it an innocent comment or a Nazi manifesto would definitely provoke them to put their shields up.

 

We're all in the same boat, using the same paddle, so let's not go around in circles.

[KaibaSama]

I'm usually just offended when people make jokes about the Holocaust or Hitler. I find stuff like that to be really really tasteless and sort of insensitive. But hey, that's just me.

[Nothingtown]

black people should get over themselves...slavery happened 200 years ago

 

^i find that pretty synonymous to anybody who would use the..."its in the past" argument to be honest

 

the fact is that jews are still a minority and are widely prosecuted today...6 million jews were wiped out over the course of a few years

and those 6 million lives can still directly affect todays jewish people, even the younger generation...who never had the chance to know their grandparents

 

as for the swastika, whether people like it or not...it is a nazi symbol...whatever it meant in the past, thats gone. if i walked into a jewellery store and saw them selling swastikas im fairly sure id start smashing some shit

and the person wanting to meet hitler...not offensive, id just question that persons intelligence...he must be a complete idiot

 

it also depends on where it's coming from, I went from living in a jewish community and having only jewish friends with very few non-jewish friends(who we all generally considered jews anyways) to going and being the only jew in a group of people many of which had never met a jewish person...the number of times i got "but you don't act jewish" or "you don't look jewish" was kind of ridiculous...but i was able to openly joke about it with people i had become friends with...but when people I wasn't friends with made comments, i wouldn't be happy about it

 

this is all coming from someone who doesn't believe in religion at all

but i embrace the culture i was raised in

Edited by Nothingtown, 26 May 2014 - 06:42 AM.

[DasBear]

I have a converted aunt (dads side) and 2 uncles (motherside), all married to Jewish people. I have a childless Godfather who pretty much adopted me when my parents separated (that's why I don't speak a lick of Spanish ) and he's Jewish. I lived in a predominately Jewish  area growing up. My bubbe assisted in WW2 making ammunition shells for the Soldiers as my zaide fought in the war (101st Airborne). I met a relative of my godfathers' that survived the camps, tattooed and everything. So, this topic can be pretty touchy for me. 

When I hear these insensitive little punks talk so casually about the holocaust and say shit like, "Oh that was so long ago get over it." I snap, I just snap. You arrogant little fucks. ):< ...@Satsuki, I agree with you. Hilter jokes are not funny. 

[Galadriel]

as for the swastika, whether people like it or not...it is a nazi symbol...whatever it meant in the past, thats gone. if i walked into a jewellery store and saw them selling swastikas im fairly sure id start smashing some shit

and the person wanting to meet hitler...not offensive, id just question that persons intelligence...he must be a complete idiot

 

It is this sort of arrogance and ignorance that annoys me. You cannot completely disregard the meaning it has in other cultures which are still very much alive today.

 

As for a dinner with Hitler- I personally think dinner with Hitler would be very interesting. Despite how you feel about him, his accomplishments were huge. No fool could cause the destructive he caused. I would love to be able to have a peek into his mind and understand his thinking. I can also assure you that, on average, I am no idiot.

[Sweeney]

The swastika has a longer history than just its Nazi appropriation.

Ignoring that is arrogance.

[Frizzle]

Also slightly racist to many Asian cultures.

[Galadriel]

Racism that is all too ironic.

[Magical]

It is this sort of arrogance and ignorance that annoys me. You cannot completely disregard the meaning it has in other cultures which are still very much alive today.

 

As for a dinner with Hitler- I personally think dinner with Hitler would be very interesting. Despite how you feel about him, his accomplishments were huge. No fool could cause the destructive he caused. I would love to be able to have a peek into his mind and understand his thinking. I can also assure you that, on average, I am no idiot.

 

Absolutely! I'd love to know how fucked up he really was! I wouldn't want to have dinner with him because I love how evil he is, but by what kind of shit goes on upstairs. I really have no problem with the swastikas representing non-nazi sentiments. Bear in mind that we shouldn't have the 'oh-get-over-it' attitude. To a majority of Jews, it would be quite emotional. We'd also never want to spite their sensitivity with the swastikas either.

 

For impartiality's sake, we should try and evaluate/sympathise with Jews and non-Jews, rather then say which viewpoint is correct.

The swastika has a longer history than just its Nazi appropriation.

Ignoring that is arrogance.

 

Yeah, to different cultures/races/generations it has it's own representations and connotations, and it's so important for those who are sensitive to the swastika to not be so quick to take offense (much easier said than done due to the deep emotional association).

[Nothingtown]

I like this thread

 

ask for a jews opinion on a topic, and then attack him for it

 

I was hesitant to post here in the first place.

 

 

obviously my opinion is going to differ from people who weren't affected by what happened

[Dan]

I don't think it's anyone's job to determine how offended someone should be - it's impossible to know individual circumstances.

 

Belittling someone's feelings because you don't understand why it's offensive is short sighted.

[Magical]

I like this thread

 

ask for a jews opinion on a topic, and then attack him for it

 

I was hesitant to post here in the first place.

 

 

obviously my opinion is going to differ from people who weren't affected by what happened

 

No way! We value it for sure. But don't forget, this subject matter is more deeply rooted within your heritage, than most of ours. Try and see it from both sides, and we'll be able to see it from yours

[Nothingtown]

I can see it from both sides

 

regardless of how interesting you think hitler might be, the thought of spending any time with a monster like that is just a shocking idea to me

 

and as for the swastika having a history prior to the nazi regime, Im fully aware of that, I don't intend to demean any other cultures

i just believe that the nazis have tainted the symbol to no longer mean what it may have used to represent

[Galadriel]

I like this thread

 

ask for a jews opinion on a topic, and then attack him for it

 

I was hesitant to post here in the first place.

 

 

obviously my opinion is going to differ from people who weren't affected by what happened

 

I am not attacking you for it. If you make bold statements expect for them to be challenged and have the maturity to not see it as a personal attack. That attitude will get you nowhere.

[Magical]

I don't think it's anyone's job to determine how offended someone should be - it's impossible to know individual circumstances.

 

Belittling someone's feelings because you don't understand why it's offensive is short sighted.

 

Exactly, which is why it's so important to be able to try to empathise with people on the other side of the fence.

 

Trowing "arrogance" and "ignorance" around isn't going to help anyone. For non-first gen survivors, it's simply learnt behaviour. For the first-gen survivors, it's their reaction to an action.

[Speedracer]

I agree with Waser the Jewish community has an extremely long history of being persecuted and the swastika is a prominent symbol used in that persecution even today by hate groups.

Regardless of a symbols history or other meanings they can be overshadowed by one strong use of them. The swastika being one of them, for the majority of people that see a swastika the first thing they connect it to is the Nazi party. The same way that the Stars and Bars flag (U.S. Confederacy flag) was originally used as a symbol of southern heritage and pride, but it is now related to racism due to prominent use by hate groups such as the KKK

[Magical]

I can see it from both sides

 

regardless of how interesting you think hitler might be, the thought of spending any time with a monster like that is just a shocking idea to me

 

and as for the swastika having a history prior to the nazi regime, Im fully aware of that, I don't intend to demean any other cultures

i just believe that the nazis have tainted the symbol to no longer mean what it may have used to represent

 

Yeah, the meaning of the swastika has been so prevalently diluted. But honestly, don't you want to know what makes a monster a monster?

[Nothingtown]

I am not attacking you for it. If you make bold statements expect for them to be challenged and have the maturity to not see it as a personal attack. That attitude will get you nowhere.

 

3 posts calling me ignorant, arrogant, and racist

[HappyAccident]

It is this sort of arrogance and ignorance that annoys me. You cannot completely disregard the meaning it has in other cultures which are still very much alive today.

 

As for a dinner with Hitler- I personally think dinner with Hitler would be very interesting. Despite how you feel about him, his accomplishments were huge. No fool could cause the destructive he caused. I would love to be able to have a peek into his mind and understand his thinking. I can also assure you that, on average, I am no idiot.

 

As a Jew, I would have to disagree. Of course I understand that it has meaning in other cultures and I respect that, but just having conversations with my great- grandmother about the suffering she went through during and after the war, I can't bring myself to view the symbol in a different way. I know that sounds ignorant but I just can't, nothing I can do about it. She usually can't even finish a story because she just starts breaking down in front of us and feels embarrassed.

 

As for the dinner with Hitler. I definitely see the interest in having it, but for the sake of what a majority of my family went through, I wouldn't sit at the same table as him because I feel it would disrespect them in a way.

[Nothingtown]

Yeah, the meaning of the swastika has been so prevalently diluted. But honestly, don't you want to know what makes a monster a monster?

 

i don't think any jew would want to sit down and have a conversation with him

 

although as I would have love to sit down with a person like stalin, I can see how people who were not directly affected by it may want to sit down with hitler...though i still don't like it