563 replies to this topic

[vurty]

I don't see the problem...If people are so against abortion, don't have one. That's like telling people not to smoke because people are against it. Let people do what they want. Plus the fact that most of the time, people that would have one wouldn't be able to support it either financially or for other reasons, so the baby wouldn't have a good life anyways. Id rather never exist than have a shitty life.

[Mishelle]

It irritates me when people say that abortion isn't birth control. Yes, abortion is birth control. Abortion is not a contraceptive, but it is by definition birth control.
I don't give a shit about people's medical history and I really don't give a shit how many abortions they've had or why since it's not my kid and not my problem.

And it also annoys me that whenever abortion is brought up people immediately jump the the teenage whore who should've kept her legs shut stereotype. Most women who have abortions already have a kid/kids. Women don't line up in front of the clinic to abortions just for the fucking hell of it, it's a surgery. Obviously they feel it is necessary and that's a good enough reason for me.

[WharfRat]

I don't see the problem...If people are so against abortion, don't have one. That's like telling people not to smoke because people are against it. Let people do what they want. Plus the fact that most of the time, people that would have one wouldn't be able to support it either financially or for other reasons, so the baby wouldn't have a good life anyways. Id rather never exist than have a shitty life.

As a libertarian, I can appreciate this approach to things in life. The reason why this violates that basic tenant of allowing people to do whatever they would like to themselves is invalid, imo, is that it is violating the life of the unborn child. I think it really all comes down to when you define a being as "living".

[Mishelle]

If abortion is murder then would a miscarriage classify as manslaughter?

[WharfRat]

If abortion is murder then would a miscarriage classify as manslaughter?

If the miscarriage was caused from the mother's negligence, then yes... I think it would. I knew a girl who used coke, meth, ecstasy, and drank all the fucking time when she was pregnant and she had a miscarriage. (Thankfully for that baby). I think that she definitely should be charged with manslaughter... or at minimum a charge similar to being negligent while caring for your child leading to the ultimate death of the child.

[Mishelle]

Okay what about a simple miscarriage? The uterus expels the person and it dies, the person is being killed even though it wasn't intentional or driven by malice. If abortion is classified as murder then by definition a miscarriage would be considered manslaughter.

That's why it's not considered a baby until it's expelled from the womb because a fetus can die or be expelled by the body at any time. There are studies that state that 70% of fertilized eggs never go on to become a full term pregnancy. Miscarriages in early pregnancy is VERY common that's why it baffles me that people think life begins at conception. If we considered life beginning at conception then our human mortality rate would be fucked. Our rate of deaths per year would be fucked. A woman would have to submit a death certificate every time she miscarries. IMO it doesn't make sense logically to consider a fertilized egg a person with rights.

[vurty]

As a libertarian, I can appreciate this approach to things in life. The reason why this violates that basic tenant of allowing people to do whatever they would like to themselves is invalid, imo, is that it is violating the life of the unborn child. I think it really all comes down to when you define a being as "living".

I understand what you are saying. And I do agree it may not be a moral thing to do. Yes, it really does come down to what your definition of living is. I think it's kind of similar to pulling the plug on someone in a vegetative state, in which case I think if there's no coming back, pull the plug. This is because it's almost better for them. I personally would not want to be alive for the rest of my life only because of a machine and have no conscious life. I also would not want to be a baby of family that would not have enough money to support me. Which is why I think abortions should be allowed. I understand it can be considered killing. But in reality the only people it affects are the people that made the decision.

[iceberg2477]

pro choice! why should women have to go through a pregnancy when it's not wanted, a result of sexual assault , or the lack of a nurturing atmosphere. there are way too many barely teens and young adults getting knocked up and doing poor jobs as parents...

[Legitboi]

whenever i see a newborn baby.... it's making me feel so HAPPY because of their innocent and cute LOOK so i recommend NO PERMITTED FOR ABORTION AT ALL COST.

[vurty]

pro choice! why should women have to go through a pregnancy when it's not wanted, a result of sexual assault , or the lack of a nurturing atmosphere. there are way too many barely teens and young adults getting knocked up and doing poor jobs as parents...

Nicely said

[Ladida]

Omg omg babies are sooo cyuuute, they're innocent, adorable little cuppycakes!! I mean, they're so innocent and adorable, they can't possibly need the food, shelter, maturity and stability that I can't give them!! So if I ever have a darling little munchkin chubby cheeks, I'll be so HAPPY!!!

And people wonder why the resulting kids are so fucked up? People need to mature the fuck up before bringing kids into the world. Babies are not adorable, innocent dolls for you to play with.

Edited by Ladida, 25 March 2011 - 03:51 PM.

[GeorgeBright]

Anything that can keep us from stripping the earth's resources that much earlier is a good thing in my book.
Better option is to just keep it in your pants/keep your pants on though. People are stupid.

[vurty]

Anything that can keep us from stripping the earth's resources that much earlier is a good thing in my book.
Better option is to just keep it in your pants/keep your pants on though. People are stupid.

Easier said than done, but I do agree. At least wrap it.

Edited by vurty, 25 March 2011 - 10:24 PM.

[MisterDerp]

Omg omg babies are sooo cyuuute, they're innocent, adorable little cuppycakes!! I mean, they're so innocent and adorable, they can't possibly need the food, shelter, maturity and stability that I can't give them!! So if I ever have a darling little munchkin chubby cheeks, I'll be so HAPPY!!!

And people wonder why the resulting kids are so fucked up? People need to mature the fuck up before bringing kids into the world. Babies are not adorable, innocent dolls for you to play with.

It's not gonna get much better since South Dakota recently passed a law saying after July 1, 2011, any woman planning to get an abortion needs to go to a Crisis Pregnancy Center first. CPCs are usually run by pro-life, Christian groups and they'll lie, trick, and scare her into having the baby. For example, they'll say the female is 12 weeks along when she's really 18 weeks along; this makes her think she has more time to make her decision, and of course, they'll preach Christianity to her.

http://news.yahoo.co...fchurchandstate
I couldn't find any other source that wasn't directly aligned with a pro-life or pro-choice website.

I almost shat my pants when I heard this. Seriously, what the hell?

Edited by PsychoSoldier, 01 April 2011 - 02:44 PM.

[Ali]

Okay what about a simple miscarriage? The uterus expels the person and it dies, the person is being killed even though it wasn't intentional or driven by malice. If abortion is classified as murder then by definition a miscarriage would be considered manslaughter.

That's why it's not considered a baby until it's expelled from the womb because a fetus can die or be expelled by the body at any time. There are studies that state that 70% of fertilized eggs never go on to become a full term pregnancy. Miscarriages in early pregnancy is VERY common that's why it baffles me that people think life begins at conception. If we considered life beginning at conception then our human mortality rate would be fucked. Our rate of deaths per year would be fucked. A woman would have to submit a death certificate every time she miscarries. IMO it doesn't make sense logically to consider a fertilized egg a person with rights.

While I completely agree that it's not a life at that point, I don't agree with the miscarriage/manslaughter analogy. So many healthy expectant mothers have miscarriages, even though they've gone by the book on everything. Manslaughter asks for some sort of causation. If a baby dies, say a cot death, there's not necessarily a link between the parents actions and that death, it's just a very unfortunate incident, not manslaughter. Similarly, if a miscarriage occurs, regardless of whether you consider that to be a "life" or not, you can't refer to it as manslaughter if you did everything to try and have a healthy pregnancy.

Which throws up the question of context. I don't want children and if it came to it, I'd have an abortion. I don't believe that is a life. If I got pregnant, decided I wanted that child and miscarried though...would I consider it a life then? Women grieve for those babies that never quite happened, no matter what stage of pregnancy you're at, 6 weeks or 6 months...does it only become a life when I choose to see it as one?

[chickenwang555]

I'm pro abortion just becuase its not like abortions are cheap. If you got the money for an abortion just floating around, and you've made the decision a child isn't for you, then its your life. Who are we to try to make your decisions for you?
I was 17 and pregnant and contemplated abortion just because I knew I wouldn't have time for the baby and I absolutely could not have a baby just to give it away. I am human and would want the baby after bonding with it for nine monthes. I like to stay busy so when I was 17 I was working full time, going to college, going to high school, taking parenting classes, paying all bills for a two bedroom apt, and I barely got to sleep 5- 6 hours a day if i was lucky, just to repeat process.

I looked up abortions and not only did I have to drive across the state to do so, you had to have about 500 bucks. I hate driving, so I have a baby. JK

[Ladida]

does it only become a life when I choose to see it as one?

Simply put, yep.

[eatsrainbows]

Yes, but there should be a definite time period. (not 9th month abortions)
The clinics should also warn women about the side effects, I've known some women who have had abortions and they said that at the clinic the doctors told them that it's just a clump of cells and it's no big deal. But later on in life they felt depressed or would regret it.

[kabuzzle]

Yes, but there should be a definite time period. (not 9th month abortions)
The clinics should also warn women about the side effects, I've known some women who have had abortions and they said that at the clinic the doctors told them that it's just a clump of cells and it's no big deal. But later on in life they felt depressed or would regret it.

I agree on the time period issue, but the fact is that medical science can now keep a fetus alive from even earlier than before; at what stage then would it be unethical to abort? As I've stated before, I'm pro-abortion as I believe it's every woman's right to choose what happens with her own body.

I've known women who have had abortions too, and yes they questioned their own decisions later in life. However, it was what was right at the time and I think that's the point, every person is different and should have a fair sense of what they can and cannot cope with. If I had fallen pregnant in my late teens or early twenties, I would definitely have considered abortion as I was in no way ready for a child. As I've grown older my views have shifted somewhat; watching both your sisters have children can do that to you!

[Ladida]

As I've grown older my views have shifted somewhat; watching both your sisters have children can do that to you!

I'm guessing both your sisters had grown up and were in committed relationships or married before they had children. If they had had teenage pregnancies, I doubt you'd be able to say that your views shifted to the rosier side of the spectrum.

[kabuzzle]

I'm guessing both your sisters had grown up and were in committed relationships or married before they had children. If they had had teenage pregnancies, I doubt you'd be able to say that your views shifted to the rosier side of the spectrum.

Yes, my sisters (who are ten and twelve years older than me respectively) were in their twenties when they had their children. However, my niece has had a child and she was 15 when she gave birth. Now, she was very lucky in that even though they were horrified, my sister and her husband provided her with all the support they could, and she and the child lives with them now. It would be a completely different story if she hadn't had that support system in place. And I am still pro-abortion. I didn't mean that the fact of my sisters' pregnancies had changed my views on abortion as a whole, I meant that I personally feel now that I am in a committed, adult relationship and that I could handle having a child.

[Adam]

I'm guessing both your sisters had grown up and were in committed relationships or married before they had children. If they had had teenage pregnancies, I doubt you'd be able to say that your views shifted to the rosier side of the spectrum.

Well then that person should keep their legs closed, killing a fetus/baby should shouldn't even be considered. Unprotected sex = baby. Abstinance = no baby..imagine that. Do you know what /most/ (unless you're hiedi flice) women feel guilt and sorrow when they abort a child? The guilt and sorrow come from the conscious mind telling them that they did something wrong.

Edited by Adam, 12 April 2011 - 03:56 PM.

[kabuzzle]

Well then that person should keep their legs closed, killing a fetus/baby should shouldn't even be considered. Unprotected sex = baby. Abstinance = no baby..imagine that. Do you know what /most/ (unless you're hiedi flice) women feel guilt and sorrow when they abort a child? The guilt and sorrow come from the conscious mind telling them that they did something wrong.

Preaching abstinence is also a giant waste of time. It works soooo well. And equating women who feel no guilt over abortion to a prostitute is demeaning to them. What is your source for the above? Whether or not a woman carries a child to term is her choice and not the government's or the church's.

[Kat]

Well then that person should keep their legs closed, killing a fetus/baby should shouldn't even be considered. Unprotected sex = baby. Abstinance = no baby..imagine that. Do you know what /most/ (unless you're hiedi flice) women feel guilt and sorrow when they abort a child? The guilt and sorrow come from the conscious mind telling them that they did something wrong.

Too bad the fetus is not alive so it would not be killing.

And I do not know anyone out of my personal friends who felt sorry about their abortion. They could not psychically or financially take care of a child at their age. In fact, they felt pretty good not bringing a child into that kind of life. Now one of them has a family of her own and financial support and a wonderful home. She has no regrets.

Also, why do men care so much about this issue.. It bugs the hell out of me for some reason. It's really none of your business unless it was your own sperm.. even then, it's a woman's body. It's her choice, her womb, and her future.

Edit: Typo.

Edited by Katrinas, 12 April 2011 - 04:07 PM.

[Adam]

What's your definition of life then?
As quoted from dictionary.com:

the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

Does a fetus contain cells? What do living cells do? They congregate, manifest, expand to form life. Is a fetus forced to adapt to it's surroundings [the womb]? To a certain extent, yes, but you can also argue that the fetus isn't actively adapting to the surroundings inside the womb. What if someone who hardly knew you, or knew you very well, came up and said to you "You're a giant waste of space, you really should have been aborted." or how about "You're a waste of sperm and egg." Would you be insulted? I know I would be. The only way I see abortion as a viable 'way out' is if the fetus is in any way harmful to the mother or there is some substantial % that the fetus will die anyway upon birth or shortly after. I believe a woman's body is just that, a woman's body. What I don't believe in, is that life should be taken into man {woman's] hand. Life and death are natural things.