563 replies to this topic

[Hydrange]

As a vegan, I think abortion should be universally free, accessible, and anonymous.

and legal of course

Lol that was a bit creepy, I mean the vegan part. unless you aren't suggesting to make a stew with the aborted fetus.

[Narcissa]

I find it really insulting that guys feel like they have a right to say shit about this topic. Unless its your child you've really no say as to whether or not I can keep or abort a child. It's nurtured in my body and damnit, if I don't want to deal with the bajillion things that can go wrong with a pregnancy than thats my and the person who helped me conceived issue. Nobody elses.

Don't even get me started on how awful abortions were before they were legal. People still got them and suffered horrible consequences because of the lack of care for their own well being.

Also, what happens to the child when the mom is forced to go through with it and gives it up for adoption? That's totally not fair to the child when the mother knew she wouldn't be able to care for it. That's not living.

[Sweeney]

I find it really insulting that guys feel like they have a right to say shit about this topic.

What about the guys who support women's choices?

You don't need to have cancer in order to diagnose and treat it. I don't need to be an accidental father to have an opinion on human rights.

[Altzer]

Definitely, Sweeney. I think she meant the guys who insist on making abortion illegal, when they are not the ones who will suffer for it. That pisses me off, since abortion won't be legal in my country for at least 20 years I'd say, due to men deciding on the subject.
I'm actually really happy when I see a guy who supports women's right to have that choice, even though it doesn't directly affect them.

[Narcissa]

Definitely, Sweeney. I think she meant the guys who insist on making abortion illegal, when they are not the ones who will suffer for it. That pisses me off, since abortion won't be legal in my country for at least 20 years I'd say, due to men deciding on the subject.
I'm actually really happy when I see a guy who supports women's right to have that choice, even though it doesn't directly affect them.

This. And like I said, it'd be mine and the person who I conceived with decision; I don't feel like there is a need for outside parties to get involved in this issue. What I find insulting is that the men who've really no right to get involved because of all the crap the female goes through and not the male. Pregnancy is incredibly rough on a woman's body and I think they should have every right, along with their partners consent, to abort the fetus.

I guess, really what I'm trying to get at more than anything is that it should be the mother and fathers decision to keep or abort their child; this is a personal choice issue. Outside parties should not interfere.

All about pro-choice man.

[Frizzle]

Surely abortion should be forces upon people with disabled/ugly babies?

[Altzer]

Surely abortion should be forces upon people with disabled/ugly babies?

God forbid, ugly babies It's eugenics, not a new idea, and not very popular.

[necospes]

This. And like I said, it'd be mine and the person who I conceived with decision; I don't feel like there is a need for outside parties to get involved in this issue. What I find insulting is that the men who've really no right to get involved because of all the crap the female goes through and not the male. Pregnancy is incredibly rough on a woman's body and I think they should have every right, along with their partners consent, to abort the fetus.

I guess, really what I'm trying to get at more than anything is that it should be the mother and fathers decision to keep or abort their child; this is a personal choice issue. Outside parties should not interfere.

All about pro-choice man.

Abortions are incredibly rough on the fetus' body as well, and some find it morally wrong to destroy this seed of life. Do they not have the right to oppose what they believe is morally wrong? Does the fact that the female suffers a little from pregnancy give her the power to commit immorality?

Surely abortion should be forces upon people with disabled/ugly babies?

Don't forget obese babies.

[Altzer]

Abortions are incredibly rough on the fetus' body as well, and some find it morally wrong to destroy this seed of life. Do they not have the right to oppose what they believe is morally wrong? Does the fact that the female suffers a little from pregnancy give her the power to commit immorality?

There is a very great difference between A) the mother, who has a life to deal with and a future she's building (which can be destroyed by a pregnancy), and B) The body of a fetus, which doesn't have a developed nervous system and is thus unable to perceive and distinguish stimuli. Some find it morally wrong - that's alright, but morality (not to be confused with ethics) is personal and pushing it on others is abusive.
Secondly, I find it honestly obscene that you said that women suffer "a little". Not only do they go through nine months of psychological distress, they undergo permanent physical changes, permanent perineal tearing which can cause prolapse, and lastly, there's a chance that they may die due to birth complications.
If for a woman it is not immoral to abort, then she should have that choice and not push it on anyone else. If for someone else it is immoral, then they are very welcome to not take that choice.

Edited by Altzer, 22 July 2011 - 06:20 AM.

[necospes]

There is a very great difference between A) the mother, who has a life to deal with and a future she's building (which can be destroyed by a pregnancy), and B) The body of a fetus, which doesn't have a developed nervous system and is thus unable to perceive and distinguish stimuli. Some find it morally wrong - that's alright, but morality (not to be confused with ethics) is personal and pushing it on others is abusive.

I said that abortions are hard on the fetus in jest, by the way.

Why is it abusive? My argument is that people think abortion is wrong the same way murder is wrong. Therefore, those people should be able to get laws to stop this from happening. This does not seem abusive to me, so you are going to have to clarify.

Secondly, I find it honestly obscene that you said that women suffer "a little". Not only do they go through nine months of psychological distress, they undergo permanent physical changes, permanent perineal tearing which can cause prolapse, and lastly, there's a chance that they may die due to birth complications.

I take it back. I was exaggerating a bit to make a point.

If for a woman it is not immoral to abort, then she should have that choice and not push it on anyone else. If for someone else it is immoral, then they are very welcome to not take that choice.

Are you arguing that if someone decides that an action is immoral, then that person may perform that action no matter what? What if you decide that it is not immoral to kill a serial murderer such as in Dexter? Are you allowed to just do anything you consider to be immoral when society deems it otherwise?

Edited by necospes, 22 July 2011 - 06:52 AM.

[Claws]

Abortions are incredibly rough on the fetus' body as well, and some find it morally wrong to destroy this seed of life. Do they not have the right to oppose what they believe is morally wrong? Does the fact that the female suffers a little from pregnancy give her the power to commit immorality?

Adding on to that^
Some females that have abortions later suffer from depression and that could later lead to suicide. Getting an abortion doesn't make everything a-ok afterward; long term side effects/consequences are there too.

Anyway, "destroying" one future may open up a brighter one.

[Altzer]

I said that abortions are hard on the fetus in jest, by the way.

Why is it abusive? My argument is that people think abortion is wrong the same way murder is wrong. Therefore, those people should be able to get laws to stop this from happening. This does not seem abusive to me, so you are going to have to clarify.

Are you arguing that if someone decides that an action is immoral, then that person may perform that action no matter what? What if you decide that it is not immoral to kill a serial murderer such as in Dexter? Are you allowed to just do anything you consider to be immoral when society deems it otherwise?

Sorry, I get fired up with this discussions :| I really don't like talking about this subject, because it makes me so angry the way it is where I live. So excuse me, as tone is rather hard to discriminate over the internet.
I learned the difference between morals and ethics in bioethics class...Ethics are rules that are common to everyone - killing is bad, stealing is bad, liberty is important, etc. Morals are our personal values, which we may or may not share with some other people - appearance is important, success is important, cheating is good/not okay, God is important, etc. Does society as a whole condemn doctors who perform abortions the same way it condemned John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy? No, because finding it immoral is personal. If I and a group of people think putting leashes on dogs is as bad as murder, we still don't get to legislate on it for the whole nation.

And Claws, I personally know a woman who went through the pregnancy, gave up the child and went through a period of depression so bad that she almost killed herself. Both can be emotionally scarring, some women may be more distressed by going through the pregnancy/birth, some by going through an abortion. That's why I think they should have a choice.

Edited by Altzer, 22 July 2011 - 07:29 AM.

[Ali]

Adding on to that^
Some females that have abortions later suffer from depression and that could later lead to suicide. Getting an abortion doesn't make everything a-ok afterward; long term side effects/consequences are there too.

Anyway, "destroying" one future may open up a brighter one.

So can some women who suffer from miscarriages. So can some women who have a child. No matter how "well" a pregnancy goes in relation to what you want, there's no guarantee of how it will affect a woman's mental state.

[necospes]

Sorry, I get fired up with this discussions :| I really don't like talking about this subject, because it makes me so angry the way it is where I live. So excuse me, as tone is rather hard to discriminate over the internet.
I learned the difference between morals and ethics in bioethics class...Ethics are rules that are common to everyone - killing is bad, stealing is bad, liberty is important, etc. Morals are our personal values, which we may or may not share with some other people - appearance is important, success is important, cheating is good/not okay, God is important, etc. Does society as a whole condemn doctors who perform abortions the same way it condemned John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy? No, because finding it immoral is personal. If I and a group of people think putting leashes on dogs is as bad as murder, we still don't get to legislate on it for the whole nation.

My main argument here is that people should be allowed to believe that abortion is ethically wrong and fight for this belief. To dismiss the entire pro-life argument merely because they are a third party seems a bit silly to me. The third party is involved because they think it is ethically outrageous.

[Narcissa]

Abortions are incredibly rough on the fetus' body as well, and some find it morally wrong to destroy this seed of life. Do they not have the right to oppose what they believe is morally wrong? Does the fact that the female suffers a little from pregnancy give her the power to commit immorality?
Don't forget obese babies.

You morals =/= my morals.

As I said, outside parties do not and should not have a right to my body and my fetus because of their "morals". You can oppose it all you want and that's fine but thinking that morally you're better than me and my own morals and ergo should have control over my body is an asinine and dick move to pull. If I don't want a kid than that is my right and whoever helped me conceived. Period.

My main argument here is that people should be allowed to believe that abortion is ethically wrong and fight for this belief. To dismiss the entire pro-life argument merely because they are a third party seems a bit silly to me. The third party is involved because they think it is ethically outrageous.

The issue with 3rd parties is that it's incredibly easy to be far removed from the actual affect of what will happen to the parties whom are directly involved. It's oh so nice to be able to say yeah, on your own terms, abortion is wrong and therefore shouldn't be allowed but when you're personally in a position to know that having a child will be a huge burden on your life and your body it's not so easy to distance yourself from the issue that a simple in and out procedure will free you of raising another human being for 18+ years when you may very well may not be able to fulfill the role of a good parent to that child.

Not to get all personal here but when I was 13 I was raped at summer camp and got pregnant. I aborted because I was totally unable to give a child a good life and my body was in no way ready to go through those changes. I am incredibly grateful that I had that opportunity and I think it's a personal choice that should be offered to everyone who is experiencing an unexpected pregnancy. I really find it infuriating that people feel the need to push their own issues on someone whose life they really have no idea about.

Edited by Narcissa, 22 July 2011 - 02:33 PM.

[Kyouma]

Lol that was a bit creepy, I mean the vegan part. unless you aren't suggesting to make a stew with the aborted fetus.

If that was her opinion, she would've said no to abortion.
Read the story below for clarification

http://www.pagebypag...roposal_p1.html

[Dartma]

define life form - and we can talk.

otherwise this is a paradoxical argument

[necospes]

You morals =/= my morals.

As I said, outside parties do not and should not have a right to my body and my fetus because of their "morals". You can oppose it all you want and that's fine but thinking that morally you're better than me and my own morals and ergo should have control over my body is an asinine and dick move to pull. If I don't want a kid than that is my right and whoever helped me conceived. Period.

Let me clarify one thing: I am neither pro-life nor pro-choice. In fact, I could not care less about this issue. In other words, I am not pushing my "morals" onto you because I really don't care if people want to abort babies or not. You are misinterpreting my argument as a pro-life argument, when I am merely saying this issue is a grey area.

Back to my argument. Can we not "push" our morals on that person in acts that are so morally wrong that a considerable majority of society deems it wrong? Well, people against abortions believe that it is horrible enough to push onto people who think otherwise.

Consider murder for a second. I assert that the moral that murder is horrible should be pushed onto people who do not believe it is wrong. Surely, you agree. Now, abortion is no where near as bad as murder, but pro-life people believe abortion is sufficiently horrible to outlaw everyone from doing it, personal morals be damned. Is this such an asinine and dick move?

[mintos]

I would just like to point out that abortion used as birth control doesn't make sense since it costs $300-$500 and is unpleasant/painful. So instead of using FREE birth control (planned parenthood or state programs) they'll be spending tons of money, having to go through tons of protestors, and hurting themselves.

Do you REALLY want someone who uses abortion as birth control, or would do so, raising a kid?

[lonewolf]

Its obviously the womens decidion whether ol rnot to get an abortion

[Hydrange]

Its obviously the womens decidion whether ol rnot to get an abortion

I wonder what happens if the woman wants to get rid of the baby but the man wants to have it. I feel like it's a bit unfair that only the woman can decide about something, even if it's her who is carrying the baby and the man offers her if she really doesn't want it, to renounce totally to the baby once born, proving he has a good source of income. Sure he gets treated like a sexist cunt that doesn't understand the woman and wants to dispossess her of her dignity as woman. Then he will have to indemnify her for psychological damage a monthly pension and the keys of his house.

Edited by Tracy, 11 August 2011 - 07:18 AM.

[Ladida]

I wonder what happens if the woman wants to get rid of the baby but the man wants to have it. I feel like it's a bit unfair that only the woman can decide about something, even if it's her who is carrying the baby and the man offers her if she really doesn't want it, to renounce totally to the baby once born, proving he has a good source of income. Sure he gets treated like a sexist cunt that doesn't understand the woman and wants to dispossess her of her dignity as woman. Then he will have to indemnify her for psychological damage a monthly pension and the keys of his house.

Her body, her choice. If the guy wants a baby that badly, he can get a surrogate and an egg from somewhere, or he can adopt No reason to force someone who doesn't want the kid to carry it.

[fimend]

You can be pro-choice, but anti-abortion. I don't like the idea of getting an abortion at all because it's not a pleasant thing, but I do believe in a woman's right to choose what she wants for herself. There's no reason to force someone to have a baby that they don't want and can't provide for. If you don't like abortions then don't get one, but don't tell other people they can't have one.

[Zepar]

I'm for. Each woman should have the right to decide if she wants or not a baby. Accidents happen and I'm sure that there is not a majority of women that abort many times. It's often a hard choice. Baby shouldn't born if the mother didn't want of him.

[jargon]

Abortion should be legal, but only under certain circumstances. Some girls are way too abortion-happy. I know of one girl that I went school with who was having her third abortion at seventeen.