72 replies to this topic

[BeastBear]

Let's say you were to find a 20 dollar bill laying in the middle of nowhere. Nobody was around, nobody has touched this bill in years. So you pick it up, right? You may then use this bill to your advantage such as buying a new iTunes Gift Card or putting gas into your car. Harmless, right?

Now, let's use this same ideology on obtaining shells for Neopets. What I do is find e-mails that have previously been registered to Neopets accounts, then see if I can make that same e-mail on an e-mail provider's server such as Yahoo, G-Mail, etc. This is only possible due to the fact e-mails that are deemed inactive after a certain period of time are deleted, thus allowing me to create the e-mail, and send the Neopets password to me. In every case, the user on Neopets was last spotted "a long, long time ago". Compare this to the dollar bill story.


So, should this really be looked down upon?:

- If someone were to ask for their account back, I'd give it back to them no questions asked, providing they can affirm they possessed the account in the past. (FYI: This has never been the case. The accounts ARE and forever would have been inactive if not for me or another e-mail cracker.)

- If someone was to get frozen, which has never happened to my knowledge, I would compensate them whatever they have lost on the account, regardless of the value, whether it be 10nps and the shell or they got chain frozen and they lost an estimated 120 million NPs. I WOULD indeed indemnify them.


Now, what are the pros and cons of this rule being overturned?:

Cons:
- None! There simply aren't any. Thanks to my use of a different proxy each time, all chain freezing can be avoided. Also, since these accounts haven't been maintained or cared after in such a humungous period of time, they're basically your original account after you buy it. If, and this is a big if, anything were to happen, I would pay back everything you've lost, as I've said earlier.

Pros:
- This will greatly help newer players get a start into using Neocodex programs, furthering the Neocodex expansion.
- This also allows more NPs to be spread throughout the Neopets community which is never a bad thing.

If you DO after reading this still agree with me, please take action. Don't allow an unfair rule to be set upon our community! Take action by PMing administration or even posting on this thread. Stand up for what you believe is right!

A tally of the votes I've received, including myself:
For overturning the rule: 1
Against overturning the rule: 0

[Waser Lave]

To balance this discussion, users should also read this:

http://www.neocodex....-risks-and-why/

[Junsu]

- If someone were to ask for their account back, I'd give it back to them no questions asked, providing they can affirm they possessed the account in the past. (FYI: This has never been the case. The accounts ARE and forever would have been inactive if not for me or another e-mail cracker.)

- If someone was to get frozen, which has never happened to my knowledge, I would compensate them whatever they have lost on the account, regardless of the value, whether it be 10nps and the shell or they got chain frozen and they lost an estimated 120 million NPs. I WOULD indeed indemnify them.

Who is going to see to it that people return it? Theres always scamming and lying etc.
I'm 100% you could never compensate my account or multiple other rich users on this site.

A tally of the votes I've received, including myself:
For overturning the rule: -1
Against overturning the rule: 1000

New people count as -1 people and I'm really big and take up the size of 1000 people so my vote counts as 1000 votes.

Go sell your stolen accounts somewhere else.

[Scot]

You make some very good guarantees, much like the U.S. Healthcare system but when it's time to pay up will fight tooth and nail to avoid paying out significant claims.

[Waser Lave]

I've added a poll for the OP since I'm nice like that.

[BeastBear]

Yes, this should be fun. I'll get a chance to argue my side soon enough, let me take my shower and I'll be right back to the discussion.

[Drakonid]

You use the example of a $20 bill lying on the ground, but the case is more like a credit card...

[Waser Lave]

You use the example of a $20 bill lying on the ground, but the case is more like a credit card...

Or house keys since a lot of users feel sentimental about their account, pets and items and have, in many cases, spent years building them up.

[Drakonid]

Well, yeah, I was trying to stay on the monetary branch.
The thing is, this is not just something you found, this is something you know it belongs to someone else, and you know whom it belongs to, yet you decide to take it.

[MsRose]

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New people count as -1 people and I'm really big and take up the size of 1000 people so my vote counts as 1000 votes.

Go sell your stolen accounts somewhere else.

I say your post-count should be the weight of your vote

This makes me wonder who has the highest post count on the site...

[Nymh]

Just to add to the fun, I wanted to actually respond to what you have said in your post, because I find several faults in it:

Let's say you were to find a 20 dollar bill laying in the middle of nowhere. Nobody was around, nobody has touched this bill in years. So you pick it up, right? You may then use this bill to your advantage such as buying a new iTunes Gift Card or putting gas into your car. Harmless, right?

This is not exactly the same idea as the one behind the rule that you are saying should be revoked. I don't think anyone has a problem with you personally using hashed/stolen accounts. The problem lies when you try to sell them on the site. Let's take a look at a more fitting analogy:

You are sitting on a park bench, and notice an iPod on the ground behind a bush. You pick up the iPod and try to turn it on, but it's dead because it's been lying there unused for so long. You take it home and plug it in, and when it comes back on it requires a passcode. You use your keygen to break into the iPod and make a note of the code. Then you take the iPod to a storefront and sell it to someone, passing over the code that you have obtained to gain access.

This is not an act of a good samaritan, this is monetary benefit off of someone else's property.

- If someone were to ask for their account back, I'd give it back to them no questions asked, providing they can affirm they possessed the account in the past. (FYI: This has never been the case. The accounts ARE and forever would have been inactive if not for me or another e-mail cracker.)

How is this possible if you have sold the account to someone else?

- If someone was to get frozen, which has never happened to my knowledge, I would compensate them whatever they have lost on the account, regardless of the value, whether it be 10nps and the shell or they got chain frozen and they lost an estimated 120 million NPs. I WOULD indeed indemnify them.

This is a nice thought, but could be considered nothing more than an empty promise. There are users here who have a net worth in the billions. How are you going to compensate them if they get chain-frozen from buying one of your accounts?

Cons:
- None! There simply aren't any. Thanks to my use of a different proxy each time, all chain freezing can be avoided. Also, since these accounts haven't been maintained or cared after in such a humungous period of time, they're basically your original account after you buy it. If, and this is a big if, anything were to happen, I would pay back everything you've lost, as I've said earlier.

Cons: Selling something that belongs to someone else is wrong.

Pros:
- This will greatly help newer players get a start into using Neocodex programs, furthering the Neocodex expansion.
- This also allows more NPs to be spread throughout the Neopets community which is never a bad thing.

1. New players don't need to purchase existing accounts to get started with NeoCodex programs
2. Yes, adding more NP to the Neo economy is a bad thing. Deflation is already rampant and our players are having a hard enough time trying to sell their NP as it is.

[Waser Lave]

Well, yeah, I was trying to stay on the monetary branch.
The thing is, this is not just something you found, this is something you know it belongs to someone else, and you know whom it belongs to, yet you decide to take it.

His monetary analogy was wrong though because he chose that only to suit his argument. A better analogy, in my opinion, would be somebody who loses their house keys and a few months later somebody finds them and uses them to rob everything from their house then claim that it was the fault of the original owner for not changing the locks.

2. Yes, adding more NP to the Neo economy is a bad thing. Deflation is already rampant and our players are having a hard enough time trying to sell their NP as it is.

More NP in the economy causes inflation, not deflation but yeah, it is bad because it reduces the relative value of everything.

[Nymh]

I say your post-count should be the weight of your vote

This makes me wonder who has the highest post count on the site...

Hydrogen of course

[BeastBear]

I hate to admit defeat but this just isn't the right crowd to sell these accounts to. There still is a black-market for these anyways. All of these freezing are happening because of this are way too over-exaggerated! People may play off icing as unregistered e-mails to cover for themselves, although I'm not denying the fact it happens to careless people. If you're running a bot, no proxy, and are careless, sure, you're on a path to Antarctica. But if you but care into it and take pride on NEVER having to refund a single soul after selling hundreds of accounts, icing simply do not have it. But, nevertheless, I feel as if I'm barking up the wrong tree here. I regret breaking the rules here and sorry for endangering this super-safe Neopets community.

My apologies,
~ BeastBear

[luvsmyncis]

You should apologize for the shitty analogy you gave us about the $20.

[BeastBear]

That isn't a shitty analogy. That 20 DID once belong to someone, was "lost" in a sense, and recovered to be recycled. That's about as straightforward as it gets. There is no apology needed at ALL there.

Edited by BeastBear, 19 December 2011 - 10:01 AM.

[Drakonid]

His monetary analogy was wrong though because he chose that only to suit his argument. A better analogy, in my opinion, would be somebody who loses their house keys and a few months later somebody finds them and uses them to rob everything from their house then claim that it was the fault of the original owner for not changing the locks.



More NP in the economy causes inflation, not deflation but yeah, it is bad because it reduces the relative value of everything.

I think we all agree his analogy sucks, no point on discussing that. XP

Also, I believe nymh meant that the neopoint/other economy would deflate, not the real neopets economy...

That isn't a shitty analogy. That 20 DID once belong to someone, was "lost" in a sense, and recovered to be recycled. That's about as straightforward as it gets. There is no apology needed at ALL there.

No bro, it's like finding a wallet with an ID and $20 bill inside, and you took the 20 bucks and left the wallet on the ground...

[Juturna]

It's one thing to randomly find these things, not looking for them, and it's an entirely anther when you go out of your way to get them.

As for the i-pod example Nymh brought up, I'd personally think it was okay to sell to a store as long as you didn't steal it. Imho, going out of your way to get things that aren't yours is thievery. Randomly finding abandoned money or electronics are an entirely different story. Of course, morally, some people may be obliged to find the others, but others will go "Hey, finders keepers. You lose it, it's mine now."

... Then again, said could be same for Bicycles, and cars. Meh. The point remains.

[BeastBear]

First off, I'm not your bro. I have no relations with your and you're not my friend. You're not cool. And explain how my analogy doesn't make sense. It matches section by section to selling shells. DFs these days! xD

[Drakonid]

It's one thing to randomly find these things, not looking for them, and it's an entirely anther when you go out of your way to get them.

As for the i-pod example Nymh brought up, I'd personally think it was okay to sell to a store as long as you didn't steal it. Imho, going out of your way to get things that aren't yours is thievery. Randomly finding abandoned money or electronics are an entirely different story. Of course, morally, some people may be obliged to find the others, but others will go "Hey, finders keepers. You lose it, it's mine now."

... Then again, said could be same for Bicycles, and cars. Meh. The point remains.

I'm pretty sure that with the info you get after unlocking the ipod, one could easily find the owner...

[Waser Lave]

I think we all agree his analogy sucks, no point on discussing that. XP

Also, I believe nymh meant that the neopoint/other economy would deflate, not the real neopets economy...

But the OP was talking about the real Neopets economy. Either way, inflation in the economy and the subsequent deflation of the price of NP is bad.

[BeastBear]

Ok, so this is a real life example. I've read an article of a guy looking through the streets on that jewelry street or whatever it's called in NYC. He went around looking, deliberately looking, for gold flakes. He make some thousands of dollars doing this. So, is he a thief, too?

[Waser Lave]

First off, I'm not your bro. I have no relations with your and you're not my friend. You're not cool. And explain how my analogy doesn't make sense. It matches section by section to selling shells. DFs these days! xD

Because people don't spend years building up a $20 note and hold no sentimental value to it.

[Juturna]

I'm pretty sure that with the info you get after unlocking the ipod, one could easily find the owner...

Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the Ipod. (With mine, you couldn't tell it was me. At all. ._. ) But even if you did, it's still a matter of whether you're morally obliged to return it or not, since it was just abandoned.

[Boggart]

We are one of the few sites out there that proudly state we don't hack other people's accounts. That is part of our "brand" and it benefits the community. That's why so many normal people, not big time hashers, stick around here for trading. Because it's safe and we don't want to jeopardize that.

Plus it fucks up our economy.