56 replies to this topic

[Sweeney]

This house proposes that holding the opinion of "not liking reading" makes you a vapid cesspit of intellectual deficiency.

Opening statements?
Discuss

[Frizzle]

TL:DR

[ShadowLink64]

This house proposes that holding the opinion of "not liking reading" makes you a vapid cesspit of intellectual deficiency.

Opening statements?
Discuss

Your opinion might need some clarification, since literature can be divided into fiction and non-fiction. I dislike reading fiction, but I enjoy reading non-fiction because it imparts knowledge on me that I find useful in some way (ex. for whatever projects I am up to, or field of work that I want to go into).

I'm sure that there are some characteristics of a person that are improved from reading fiction (such as empathy, and nurturing one's imagination and creativity), but I don't believe that disliking reading fiction makes me a "vapid cesspit of intellectual deficiency", given that I develop many of these characteristics from interacting with real people, and movies, and such.

[Keil]

My attention span is a Pinkie Pie. Your argument is invalid.

[Sweeney]

Your opinion might need some clarification, since literature can be divided into fiction and non-fiction. I dislike reading fiction, but I enjoy reading non-fiction because it imparts knowledge on me that I find useful in some way (ex. for whatever projects I am up to, or field of work that I want to go into).

I'm sure that there are some characteristics of a person that are improved from reading fiction (such as empathy, and nurturing one's imagination and creativity), but I don't believe that disliking reading fiction makes me a "vapid cesspit of intellectual deficiency", given that I develop many of these characteristics from interacting with real people, and movies, and such.

I don't intend for there to be a discrimination between genres... having preferences within the context of reading is irrelevant to the proposal.

Can you concieve of someone you would want to interact with, who didn't enjoy reading in any form?
(Barring, for the purposes of the discussion, people affected by extreme psychological or physical affliction).

[Waser Lave]

I'm going to wait until this thread comes out in the cinema before commenting.

[ShadowLink64]

I don't intend for there to be a discrimination between genres... having preferences within the context of reading is irrelevant to the proposal.

Ok, in which case, I may have to agree. Sometimes I do hear of people that are appalled at those who don't enjoy reading fiction, and I wanted to make sure that "reading" was being used in the most general sense.

Can you concieve of someone you would want to interact with, who didn't enjoy reading in any form?
(Barring, for the purposes of the discussion, people affected by extreme psychological or physical affliction).

This hypothetical person would have to get their information about the outside world from either direct word of mouth, television, or their own experiences. These can all be very biased, and riddled with errors as there's no reliable peer-review process associated with these (perhaps with television the script is verified, but by who? and what are their motives?).

[ae19]

This isn't something I often admit publicly for fear of being judged an intellectual elitist (which I am, at least to some degree), but yes, I agree with you. The ability to use and understand language is one of the biggest cornerstones of human intellect, and in many ways, defines human consciousness. Reading is a healthy and important way to exercise that skill. I find that reading both fiction and non-fiction promotes thought in a particular way that no other medium is capable of, and when people claim to not enjoy reading, I write them off as no longer having potential for a particularly stimulating intellectual relationship.

[NapisaurusRex]

I try to give everyone a chance. However, people who don't read on purpose have a limited vocabulary and I hate explaining every other word or idea I say. I don't write them off as 'vapid cesspits', but I'm not going to go out of my way to talk to them.

[Frizzle]

I'm going to weigh in here on second thoughts. I regularly talk to people who don't not read on a regular basis, my own father for starts, and of course some friends and family.

Some people do not enjoy reading or find it difficult, but to question their intellect, it's damn right insulting.

There is an obvious link between reading and academic usefulness but not all people are suited for this. Some people learn on the job and enjoy hands on.

Let's be honest Joe. You're a very smart guy when it comes to academic studies and scientific knowledge. I'm just wondering can you honestly say you're smarter on general then your mechanic? What about the local sparky/bricklayer or say a cable jointer who works on high voltage cables?

These types of intellect will always beyond the reaches of you and me and I think it would be wrong to assume that just because someone doesn't read, which is usually people who enjoy/work physical activities, isn't smart.

Hell I haven't read a novel in years (Lord of The Flies rocked). Intact the only reading I do is Internet browsing, newspapers and law books for work.

[Nymh]

I have a relative who prides himself on never actually reading an entire book from start to finish. He is 35 now, and likely will make it through his entire life without ever reading a book.

Now, this guy is pretty stupid in some ways... BUT he is also VERY talented and educated in his line of work. He is a good businessman and a master craftsman in his trade. He is one of those people who just knows things - he is not eloquent in the slightest and often can't explain how he comes to the conclusions or answers that he does, but he is usually right. He is an expert marksman and is the same man who killed a deer with a rock (he threw it at its head, by the way, then when it was stunned he beat it to death). Also mind you I share no blood with this man so I don't just love him because he's my relative or something silly like that.

In a lot of ways I find him amazing. I would never tell him that, though, because he is pretty self-righteous. Is he an intellectual? No, not in the slightest - so I guess in a way he would be proving of your theory. But I wouldn't quite call him a vapid cesspit of intellectual deficiency.

[Sweeney]

I'm going to weigh in here on second thoughts. I regularly talk to people who don't not read on a regular basis, my own father for starts, and of course some friends and family.

Some people do not enjoy reading or find it difficult, but to question their intellect, it's damn right insulting.

There is an obvious link between reading and academic usefulness but not all people are suited for this. Some people learn on the job and enjoy hands on.

Let's be honest Joe. You're a very smart guy when it comes to academic studies and scientific knowledge. I'm just wondering can you honestly say you're smarter on general then your mechanic? What about the local sparky/bricklayer or say a cable jointer who works on high voltage cables?

These types of intellect will always beyond the reaches of you and me and I think it would be wrong to assume that just because someone doesn't read, which is usually people who enjoy/work physical activities, isn't smart.

Hell I haven't read a novel in years (Lord of The Flies rocked). Intact the only reading I do is Internet browsing, newspapers and law books for work.

"Smartness" doesn't relate directly to knowledge. And I don't know why you assume mechanics and bricklayers don't read... I don't think I've ever met one who didn't have a newspaper to hand somewhere.

That said, assuming we are dealing with someone who learnt on the job, and doesn't read, then what on Earth do they do when they're not working? Vegetate in front of the television? Do the gardening, maybe?
I'm sure they may be a lovely person, but they're not the kind of chap to hold a conversation with.

I have a relative who prides himself on never actually reading an entire book from start to finish. He is 35 now, and likely will make it through his entire life without ever reading a book.

Now, this guy is pretty stupid in some ways... BUT he is also VERY talented and educated in his line of work. He is a good businessman and a master craftsman in his trade. He is one of those people who just knows things - he is not eloquent in the slightest and often can't explain how he comes to the conclusions or answers that he does, but he is usually right. He is an expert marksman and is the same man who killed a deer with a rock (he threw it at its head, by the way, then when it was stunned he beat it to death). Also mind you I share no blood with this man so I don't just love him because he's my relative or something silly like that.

In a lot of ways I find him amazing. I would never tell him that, though, because he is pretty self-righteous. Is he an intellectual? No, not in the slightest - so I guess in a way he would be proving of your theory. But I wouldn't quite call him a vapid cesspit of intellectual deficiency.

Doesn't sound like someone who doesn't like to read... sounds like someone who has decided to sacrifice reading in order to make his achievements sound all the more impressive without it.

[Waser Lave]

That said, assuming we are dealing with someone who learnt on the job, and doesn't read, then what on Earth do they do when they're not working? Vegetate in front of the television? Do the gardening, maybe?
I'm sure they may be a lovely person, but they're not the kind of chap to hold a conversation with.

What if they listen to the radio, do charity work, play chess, play bass in a Rolling Stones tribute band, compete in pub quizzes, travel extensively and learn multiple foreign languages in their spare time? To claim that reading makes a person interesting (or indeed smart or intellectual) pretty much reeks of snobbishness.

[artificial]

You sound like a well-educated, intellectual bigot. Some of the smartest guys I know would barely read.

You're also categorising intellectual ability through the acquirement of knowledge one would gain through reading literature. There's plenty of other sources of knowledge out there.

[luvsmyncis]

What if they listen to the radio, do charity work, play chess, play bass in a Rolling Stones tribute band, compete in pub quizzes, travel extensively and learn multiple foreign languages in their spare time? To claim that reading makes a person interesting (or indeed smart or intellectual) pretty much reeks of snobbishness.

Perhaps they also drink tea from a dainty cup with their pinkie finger up.

What about all the people who read but are uninteresting or dumb as shit? My brother reads all the time, for fun and enjoyment. But all he wants to talk about is some heavy metal band called MASTODON.

My sister hates reading, and never does so in a recreational manner. She's currently pursuing a degree in Business. I read all the time, and I dropped out of college because I made bad grades and kept getting into fights in my art classes. One might think my sister unimaginative and boring, but she has had success in selling handmade crafts, jewelery, and paintings... something I've never been able to do. She might be an intellectual degenerate, but she's better than me in numerous ways. Of course, I'd never admit that to her.

[Sweeney]

What if they listen to the radio, do charity work, play chess, play bass in a Rolling Stones tribute band, compete in pub quizzes, travel extensively and learn multiple foreign languages in their spare time? To claim that reading makes a person interesting (or indeed smart or intellectual) pretty much reeks of snobbishness.

I didn't say interesting.

But none of the things you've listed, save perhaps chess and language, indicate any kind of intelligence at all.

[Nymh]

Doesn't sound like someone who doesn't like to read... sounds like someone who has decided to sacrifice reading in order to make his achievements sound all the more impressive without it.

Perhaps, but I don't think his thought process was quite so elaborate. He's an uneducated hillbilly. For him, it's more like, "Reading? Fuck 'em."

[Sweeney]

You're also categorising intellectual ability through the acquirement of knowledge one would gain through reading literature. There's plenty of other sources of knowledge out there.

No, I'm not.
In fact, I've explicitly said that I'm not twice already.

[Waser Lave]

I didn't say interesting.

But none of the things you've listed, save perhaps chess and language, indicate any kind of intelligence at all.

I'm sure they may be a lovely person, but they're not the kind of chap to hold a conversation with.

I presumed you would want to hold a conversation with interesting people rather than simply intellectual people. After all, intellectual people can be some of the dullest people around...

[Sweeney]

What about all the people who read but are uninteresting or dumb as shit? My brother reads all the time, for fun and enjoyment. But all he wants to talk about is some heavy metal band called MASTODON.

What about them?
Reading is necessary, but not sufficient, as far as I'm concerned.

My sister hates reading, and never does so in a recreational manner. She's currently pursuing a degree in Business. I read all the time, and I dropped out of college because I made bad grades and kept getting into fights in my art classes. One might think my sister unimaginative and boring, but she has had success in selling handmade crafts, jewelery, and paintings... something I've never been able to do. She might be an intellectual degenerate, but she's better than me in numerous ways. Of course, I'd never admit that to her.

I don't think I've ever met a less generally stimulating group of people than business people =/

Perhaps, but I don't think his thought process was quite so elaborate. He's an uneducated hillbilly. For him, it's more like, "Reading? Fuck 'em."

Uh... so what was the point of using him as an example? xD

I presumed you would want to hold a conversation with interesting people rather than simply intellectual people. After all, intellectual people can be some of the dullest people around...

Perhaps there is some cross over.

Ideally, I'd like to spend my time with people who are both interesting and intellectual.

[artificial]

No, I'm not.
In fact, I've explicitly said that I'm not twice already.

Your opening argument was stating that those who don't enjoy reading are cesspits of intellectual ability.
And yet one of your next posts was that intelligence doesn't relate directly to knowledge one would gain through reading.

So what it? Or are you just generalising individuals who don't read and assuming they have a lack of intellect? Shit, while we're at it, let's debate the validity of the statement that all black men do crack. It'd be as relevant as this argument.

Edited by wetfartificial, 23 February 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[Nymh]

Uh... so what was the point of using him as an example? xD

Hmm...

Well, he's worth being around. I think it's nice to surround ourselves with people who we might assume could not provide us with intellectual stimulation. Just because he is not well read, doesn't mean that the two of us cannot learn from each other. Also, he possesses a generous amount of "common sense," of which I have very little, so I would say that I benefit greatly from associating with him.

[Sweeney]

Your opening argument was stating that those who don't enjoy reading are cesspits of intellectual ability.
And yet one of your next posts was that intelligence doesn't relate directly to knowledge one would gain through reading.

So what it? Or are you just generalising individuals who don't read and assuming they have a lack of intellect? Shit, while we're at it, let's debate the validity of the statement that all black men do crack. It'd be as relevant as this argument.

Well, I think it's pretty obvious that acquisition of knowledge, and intellectual ability aren't the same thing at all.

I'm saying that lack of reading is a strong indicator of lack of intellectual ability.

[Waser Lave]

Well, I think it's pretty obvious that acquisition of knowledge, and intellectual ability aren't the same thing at all.

I'm saying that lack of reading is a strong indicator of lack of intellectual ability.

I demand academic sources.

[Sweeney]

I demand academic sources.

It's an area of poor research