303 replies to this topic

[Romy]

Rape isn't a big deal. It's a form of assault like any that should be punished like any. The fact that we make rape the MOST HORRIBLE CRIME IN DA WORLD is a byproduct of patriarchal society that any serious feminist should oppose. Violating someone's sexuality isn't the worst thing you can do to them- unless your culture ascribes an unreasonable degree of weight to that sexuality to begin with.

Are you that stupid or are you just THAT fucked up of a person?
Beating someone up and stealing their wallet is not the same as beating the crap out of someone and raping them.
And fyi: Violating someones sexuality IS one of the worst things you can do to them.
You completely neglected to mention that RAPE is not gender specific. Males rape males. males rape females females rape females etc...
You have NEVER seen the effect getting raped has on a person.

Your Standpoint: Considering rape a horrible crime is demeaning to women and perpetuates our current patriarchal society.
I think your point, like you, is complete .

It was the scariest thing that has ever happened to me.

I'm really sorry Woug. I know it's implications but can only imagine (poorly) how it must have felt.

[8143FF763271]

I can only wish there was a way for you to get raped so you would understand how it feels.

I wouldn't necessarily wish death upon a rapist but that doesn't make it "okay" by any fucking means.. but a child rapist yes. If someone raped my two year old son or my 9 month old son.
I would want them dead.

I've been raped. No I wasn't "asking for it". I wasn't drunk. I screamed, and I fought..
It happened regardless because I was weaker than him.

I don't wish him dead, but I definitely do think it was a big fucking deal and he deserves to be in jail.
I felt like I lost control, and my body betrayed me. It was the scariest thing that has ever happened to me.

You don't understand because you're a fucking douchebag, end of.


Edit: Would it be a big deal if some jacked man pinned you down and tore out your asshole Kami? And then finished while he was still inside you? I don't care how graphic it is, I want you to picture that happening to you. Would you still be saying it's not that bad?

I don't care about your sentimentalist culturally inflected upon approach to things. I am giving an etic view of a phenomena (that people like you care so much about rape) and tracing it back to its cultural institutions. My point: In an ideal society, it wouldn't be treated as such a horrible crime. I don't expect you to be able to look at things etically for obvious reasons, none of which I mention because it's against the TOS to insult people on their intellect.

Moving on to the body of the argument, rape (in an ideal society) deserves to be treated for the physical assault that it would be. To use your question as an example, it would be a big deal if some jacked man pinned me down and tore out my asshole because of two things:

A) It hurts, it is against my will, and other typical problems with assault.

B) There's a taboo towards anal sex between males in our society that would make the experience traumatic. Since 'no one' is supposed to touch my asshole and my 'asshole' is something that would only have to be shared in the most intimate (and homosexual) of relationships, then I would make a big deal out of it being violated.

To better clarify how responses to rape are both physically and culturally determined: Take a look at Muslim and Indian girls. They cannot marry if they're not virgins, so they have a tendency to want to maintain their vaginal virginity at all costs. In order to preserve their virginity, they will engage in anal sex and oral sex but not in conventional genital intercourse. You ask a Muslim girl if she'd prefer to get raped anally or vaginally, and she'd opt for an anal violation. A Western girl probably would not, as it signifies more pain. Why would they have different preferences? Because the Muslim girl is dealing with a stronger cultural restriction and taboo on vaginal sex.

My point is that in a neutral society without taboos on sexuality, B wouldn't exist. The gravity of a rape would only be measured on A. The only reason some people consider rape worse than, say, getting stabbed is because of the cultural weight that we add to sexuality. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited by kami12, 22 August 2012 - 05:01 AM.

[Romy]

A Western girl probably would not, as it signifies more pain. Why would they have different preferences? Because the Muslim girl is dealing with a stronger cultural restriction and taboo on vaginal sex.

And who are you to make that assumption eh?
You do not have a vagina so you cannot speak for ANY female NOR have you been raped.

You are on the outside looking in Kami. You will NEVER be able to make those kinds of assumptions unless you chop off that little thing you're overcompensating for and get raped.

[8143FF763271]

And who are you to make that assumption eh?
You do not have a vagina so you cannot speak for ANY female NOR have you been raped.

You are on the outside looking in Kami. You will NEVER be able to make those kinds of assumptions unless you chop off that little thing you're overcompensating for and get raped.

Oh, sorry. We cannot talk about female behaviour unless we have vaginas. Can't talk about monkeys unless we have tails and all that.

[Romy]

Oh, sorry. We cannot talk about female behaviour unless we have vaginas. Can't talk about monkeys unless we have tails and all that.

It is much easier to look at an entire species objectively then it is to look the opposite gender objectively.
Men cannot read women 100% and vice-versa

[8143FF763271]

*Jaw Drops*
Camisole12, that just goes beyond any ethical or civilized behavior. I don't care what type of experiment you're running on these white mice, that just goes beyond contemptible. I do not understand fully why rape hurts a person so much, but it does. Those scars, they don't heal. My beloved, it has been longer than you've been alive and she still feels betrayed by those that did not protect her, she still feels anger, she's still bleeding. My worst enemy here,or Sweeney, would not deserve such an insult as what you said.

Rape is a crime, but the only reason your beloved is still freaking out about it is because the people in her culture consistently freak out about sex... which makes rape an unnecessarily traumatic and horrible experience. If that wasn't the case, she'd have moved on by now.

It is much easier to look at an entire species objectively then it is to look the opposite gender objectively.
Men cannot read women 100% and vice-versa

orly?

Edited by kami12, 22 August 2012 - 05:14 AM.

[Maeghan]

Oh thats weird.

I didn't realize you could get pregnant or get an STD from being stabbed.

[8143FF763271]

Oh thats weird.

I didn't realize you could get pregnant or get an STD from being stabbed.

If you do get pregnant or get an STD, treat it accordingly. You could get gangrene from a stab wound, but you don't see people treating it any worse because "I COULD HAVE GOTTEN GANGRENE!".

[Maeghan]

If you do get pregnant or get an STD, treat it accordingly. You could get gangrene from a stab wound, but you don't see people treating it any worse because "I COULD HAVE GOTTEN GANGRENE!".

Because starting a new life against your will and gangrene are equally as horrible.

[Drakonid]

Because starting a new life against your will and gangrene are equally as horrible.

You can lose an arm or a leg. Iunno about you, but that sounds life changing enough to me.

[Maeghan]

You can lose an arm or a leg. Iunno about you, but that sounds life changing enough to me.

Spoiler

D:

POINT TAKEN

But still. Id rather be stabbed. Than raped.

Edited by Nymh, 22 August 2012 - 05:48 AM.
Please put that stuff behind a spoiler.

[8143FF763271]

Spoiler

D:

POINT TAKEN

But still. Id rather be stabbed. Than raped.

Then thank you for proving my point.

[Maeghan]

Then thank you for proving my point.

I'd rather amputate my arm, then have to get an abortion because of rape. Or get aids because of rape.

Just because gangrene is nasty, doesn't mean getting stabbed is on the same level as getting raped.

Do you have a girlfriend(boyfriend maybe)? Because I couldn't believe how well that would go over with them.

-dream sequence-

News Reporter: The string of rapes continue in Chicago as police try to track down...

Kami: I don't see what the big deal is. It's just rape. Its like being stabbed.

Girlfriend:

Edited by Maeghan, 22 August 2012 - 05:50 AM.

[8143FF763271]

I'd rather amputate my arm, then have to get an abortion because of rape. Or get aids because of rape.

Just because gangrene is nasty, doesn't mean getting stabbed is on the same level as getting raped.

Do you have a girlfriend(boyfriend maybe)? Because I couldn't believe how well that would go over with them.

Again, you're operating on a set of cultural valuations. There's no reason why we should care so much about terminating a pregnancy. We're basically just terminating a physiological process we'd rather not do with. Why would anyone logically prefer having their arm amputated to having to terminate a pregnancy? It's because of the ideas, concepts, and values that we unnecessarily attribute to a pregnancy. Which goes back to what I'm saying- this is a shitload of cultural baggage.

[Maeghan]

Again, you're operating on a set of cultural valuations. There's no reason why we should care so much about terminating a pregnancy. We're basically just terminating a physiological process we'd rather not do with. Why would anyone logically prefer having their arm amputated to having to terminate a pregnancy? It's because of the ideas, concepts, and values that we unnecessarily attribute to a pregnancy. Which goes back to what I'm saying- this is a shitload of cultural baggage.

No, I'm operating on the fact that I already have a child.
And I couldn't imagine having an abortion after having my daughter.

But this is all for a different discussion.

Just please don't tell me why I think the way I do.

[8143FF763271]

No, I'm operating on the fact that I already have a child.
And I couldn't imagine having an abortion after having my daughter.

But this is all for a different discussion.

Just please don't tell me why I think the way I do.

I'm approaching the topic neutrally. If you feel that people are naturally inclined to value a pregnancy as much as you do, make your argument. I'd just like to tell you that there's anthropological research suggesting the contrary. Women in Brazilian favelas don't care about a pregnancy being terminated, they don't even care about their babies dying upon birth. Why? Because it's a normal occurrence and they expect it to happen. They don't even cry about it. You would, and that's the byproduct of the society around you.

I'd rather amputate my arm, then have to get an abortion because of rape. Or get aids because of rape.

Just because gangrene is nasty, doesn't mean getting stabbed is on the same level as getting raped.

Do you have a girlfriend(boyfriend maybe)? Because I couldn't believe how well that would go over with them.

-dream sequence-

News Reporter: The string of rapes continue in Chicago as police try to track down...

Kami: I don't see what the big deal is. It's just rape. Its like being stabbed.

Girlfriend:

I don't discuss sociology with my women.

[Sweeney]

He's not wrong that our attitude to rape is culturally generated.

What he is wrong about, is in thinking that that matters. You can rationalise the event all you like, as many women report doing, in fact, but you can't change how you feel - the psychological harm inflicted by a rape is a real, tangible effect of the event.
Therefore, rape inflicts, on average, significantly more (and longer lasting) harm than a stabbing, and should be legislated more harshly.

So yes, ideally rape wouldn't be a big deal in comparison to other physical assaults. That would protect women from huge amounts of psychological pain. But we're not in a society like that, and it's deeply unlikely that we ever will.

[8143FF763271]

He's not wrong that our attitude to rape is culturally generated.

What he is wrong about, is in thinking that that matters. You can rationalise the event all you like, as many women report doing, in fact, but you can't change how you feel - the psychological harm inflicted by a rape is a real, tangible effect of the event.
Therefore, rape inflicts, on average, significantly more (and longer lasting) harm than a stabbing, and should be legislated more harshly.

So yes, ideally rape wouldn't be a big deal in comparison to other physical assaults. That would protect women from huge amounts of psychological pain. But we're not in a society like that, and it's deeply unlikely that we ever will.

I noted that in my very first post

Violating someone's sexuality isn't the worst thing you can do to them- unless your culture ascribes an unreasonable degree of weight to that sexuality to begin with.

So, no, I'm not wrong. I'm just saying that trying to academically treat rape as some intrinsically heinous crime, the way some people approach it, validates a lot of this cultural valuation. Telling women that rape is the worst thing that can happen to them ever because yes ties in awfully with run-of-the-mill patriarchal conventions on female sexuality and its cultural agenda to "protect" it. Rape cases have to be addressed individually as a form of assault taking into account both the intent of the perpetrator and the harm done to the victim, not as a crime that is intrinsically horrible.

One notorious example of this is rape guilt. Some women orgasm during rape and they then feel guilty over that. Why should they? It's because of the sexual conventions we're operating on in regards to rape: Rape is a HORRIBLE CRIME ipso facto because your sexuality is sacred and you're a whore if you enjoy it. I might enjoy KFC, but that doesn't give anyone the right to FORCE me to eat it. Not only should rape-activist groups change their overblown attitude towards rape, legal documents should also be careful about the cultural institutions they help validate and establish. Rape should be treated as a form of assault and its sexual and psychological aspects should be treated accordingly.

Edited by kami12, 22 August 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[Sweeney]

I noted that in my very first post

So, no, I'm not wrong. I'm just saying that trying to academically treat rape as some intrinsically heinous crime, the way some people approach it, validates a lot of this cultural valuation. Telling women that rape is the worst thing that can happen to them ever because yes ties in awfully with run-of-the-mill patriarchal conventions on female sexuality and its cultural agenda to "protect" it. Rape cases have to be addressed individually as a form of assault taking into account both the intent of the perpetrator and the harm done to the victim, not as a crime that is intrinsically horrible.

One notorious example of this is rape guilt. Some women orgasm during rape and they then feel guilty over that. Why should they? It's because of the sexual conventions we're operating on in regards to rape: Rape is a HORRIBLE CRIME ipso facto because your sexuality is sacred and you're a whore if you enjoy it. I might enjoy KFC, but that doesn't give anyone the right to FORCE me to eat it. Not only should rape-activist groups change their overblown attitude towards rape, legal documents should also be careful about the cultural institutions they help validate and establish. Rape should be treated as a form of assault and its sexual and psychological aspects should be treated accordingly.

Then you seem to be posting walls of text for no reason at all.

[8143FF763271]

Then you seem to be posting walls of text for no reason at all.

This topic is about rape and how it should be treated, I replied accordingly. Especially taking into account that there were people in the room freaking out about rape and how horrible it is in a typical libfem fashion so I found it pertinent to point out how rape stipulations validate patriarchal conventions on female sexuality. The points I brought did spark up discussion, as redundant as you may see them, and the fact that you agree with them does not mean that the rest of the community does.

[Sweeney]

You got replies because you started with "Rape isn't a big deal". You were deliberately inflammatory.
Not because you had a valid or interesting point.

Feel free to go back and reread my post if you need tips on how to say the same thing without coming off as a gigantic arse.

[Nymh]

Why aren't we talking about men getting raped? I don't understand why everyone always omits that entire side of the discussion.