71 replies to this topic

[Andy]

Okay, I'm going to be blunt here and tell you outright that I'm debating this topic next Tuesday, and haven't thought up of any arguments yet.
I'd prefer arguments against fearing the rise of China, because that's what I'm meant to be debating. But if you have an opinion, just voice it

So uhh, discuss.
I'll start first:

The West should fear the rise of China because as China's wealth, and the Chinese living conditions become better, the western lifestyle will have to become less awesome.

[generalgsus]

Okay, I'm going to be blunt here and tell you outright that I'm debating this topic next Tuesday, and haven't thought up of any arguments yet.
I'd prefer arguments against fearing the rise of China, because that's what I'm meant to be debating. But if you have an opinion, just voice it

So uhh, discuss.
I'll start first:

The West should fear the rise of China because as China's wealth, and the Chinese living conditions become better, the western lifestyle will have to become less awesome.

It's not necessarily that the Western lifestyle will suddenly become less awesome - it'll just be "less awesome" by comparison to that of China's. I have no doubts their economy will fly up way past ours sometime soon.

[jcrdude]

"The West" or the US specifically?

I can think of plenty of reasons that the US should be terrified.

[Andy]

"The West" or the US specifically?

I can think of plenty of reasons that the US should be terrified.

either, i don't mind

[jcrdude]

Well if China rises to a point where they decide to start calling in our debt, we'd be pretty fucked. That "National Debt" that keeps piling up against America? China owns a great deal of it. If they continue at this pace, or even accelerate, they will have a "controlling interest" in US Dollars. This could mean bartering for yet unnamed deals. When another country controls the US' money, we have to either start negotiating poorly or risk economic downfall.

This process is already in the works, and the only way out is to fix the US economy, and that's something I fear cannot be accomplished in time for the processes set in motion to reach a boiling point.

[Morrigan]

China is the largest holder of American debt. Massive sales of that debt would weaken the value of the dollar.

[Sinwin]

US is already in a major asshole. If the government doesnt cut some budget or some way to save money, then our US asses will be in deep shit. It seems spending is going up instead of down.

[Andy]

China has no reason to sell that debt at a lowered price, if it did so, it would literally lose billions of dollars.

[jcrdude]

China has no reason to sell that debt at a lowered price, if it did so, it would literally lose billions of dollars.

No, but as a lined out, it can be used effectively as a negotiation tool.

[Andy]

No, but as a lined out, it can be used effectively as a negotiation tool.

Not only that, but the US Dollar is still the most important currency in the world, used for all international trade. Lowering it's value would make no sense for an export oriented nation such as China, as it would increase the price of it's exports, resulting in lower demand for it's exports. Damaging it's own economy.

[talbs]

mutually assured economic destruction

if we fail china fails, no need to ask for the debt back

if we go bankrupt, who buys chinese goods? their economy would collapse also

[Morrigan]

Not only that, but the US Dollar is still the most important currency in the world, used for all international trade. Lowering it's value would make no sense for an export oriented nation such as China, as it would increase the price of it's exports, resulting in lower demand for it's exports. Damaging it's own economy.

And, if they were to dump the bonds, what exactly would China buy instead? Certainly not the Yen or Euro.

[generalgsus]

mutually assured economic destruction

if we fail china fails, no need to ask for the debt back

if we go bankrupt, who buys chinese goods? their economy would collapse also

So we do have something on them.

I was totally ignorant of this issue, except for the fact that I'd been shown that China's economy is growing at a much much much faster rate than ours. Don't other parts of the world also buy products Made in China? It's pretty dominant in manufacturing, no?

[Warriors]

Old news really...China, ever since going into Africa, has become the number 1 contender for the title of Hegemon..I really think they will become on the top with their wealth..Hell, they bought all our debt. I would suggest it's better for the US to make dialog with China and try to be on good terms as they are doing with Russia.

[iargue]

Well if China rises to a point where they decide to start calling in our debt, we'd be pretty fucked. That "National Debt" that keeps piling up against America? China owns a great deal of it. If they continue at this pace, or even accelerate, they will have a "controlling interest" in US Dollars. This could mean bartering for yet unnamed deals. When another country controls the US' money, we have to either start negotiating poorly or risk economic downfall.

This process is already in the works, and the only way out is to fix the US economy, and that's something I fear cannot be accomplished in time for the processes set in motion to reach a boiling point.

China is the largest holder of American debt. Massive sales of that debt would weaken the value of the dollar.

No.

China only holds 23 percent of our debt. The public actually holds the most amount of our debt. While they do have the largest of any other country (Japan is close), they dont have the largest amount.

US is already in a major asshole. If the government doesnt cut some budget or some way to save money, then our US asses will be in deep shit. It seems spending is going up instead of down.

This is because the Obama Administration are complete and utter morons, and most of the america public is that same for either not realizing this/not caring. But that is another debate.

So we do have something on them.

I was totally ignorant of this issue, except for the fact that I'd been shown that China's economy is growing at a much much much faster rate than ours. Don't other parts of the world also buy products Made in China? It's pretty dominant in manufacturing, no?

MAD or Mutally Assured Destruction was actually created by the United States. After the horror of World War 2, and having already have had two massive World Wars, inorder to prevent more widespread wars from occuring, they rebuilt all of the eastern economies centering it around each other. By doing this they ensured that if one country was to declare war against other countries, then they would die off from not having that economy. Alot of countries are not natually part of this chain, but with the US protection, they become part of it. For instance, while whiping Nigeria off the face of the earth, the economy would actually -improve- the United States would protect Nigeria (I dunno why ), and the country that attacks Nigeria would be affected by MAD.

Old news really...China, ever since going into Africa, has become the number 1 contender for the title of Hegemon..I really think they will become on the top with their wealth..Hell, they bought all our debt. I would suggest it's better for the US to make dialog with China and try to be on good terms as they are doing with Russia.

China is no were near a world power. In fact, they are struggling just to stay alive, and its basically Western Support that keeps them from going under. Massive parts of their economy comes from western business, and trade. Without that keystone their entire economy would fall, and the entire nation would die. This is more then just MAD. You have to understand that China contains over 3 billion people. Managing and providing for that many people is almost impossible, especially due to the corruption that they have thanks to communism/monarchies. They have the single highest death rate of any country, and they have the highest birth rate. They have laws that prevent having more then one children in effect. Disease is common there, and China wouldn't be able to feed their entire army if they chose to deploy it into a country.

China isn't a threat because they are simply too big, too much corruption, and not as high technology. While they do host an impression billion man army, it simply makes it easier for us to target with our unmanned bombing planes. In an age of Technology we still lead with what we have. Any force to be deployed against us would have to traverse the ocean, were as we have free range to destroy it with our arsenal of missiles. In any event were they would choose to go to war, with any country, they would have atleast 5 or more people that would rip the country off for billions. With their current government strategy corruption is higher then it was during the time of the USSR. In the event that they chose to mobilize the army, its highly likely that other power factions would choose that point to mobilize against the current power and take over, not to mention plenty of powerful western business's that would love to tap into the cheap labor market. China currently underproduces in the food department. Most of its country side is mountains, and terracing can only do so much to support a 3 billion person population. Why do you think that china is the number one creator of gold sellers, bootleggers, and scammers? Because in a country that large, enforcing the laws is close to impossible in alot of the locations.

If you were to delve deeper into the theory of MAD, the united states could still survive without CHINA. We base most of our products off of china made business, but we have a fully developed infrastructure in place that would enable use to start producing again. With just a 300 million population, losing CHINA as our primary import country wouldn't affect us to the point of extinction, but more to the point of a depression. China on the other hand still is struggling to build any form of infrastructure in order to produce goods, as well as dealing with corrupt businessmen exploiting the workers.

Its easy to say that China is a threat when you just look at their size, and sit in comfy countries enjoying having food. But if you visit China, and spend time in non tourist places, then you would grasp that the country isnt strong in any way, and its barely keeping itself alive.

[kiddX]

While they do host an impression billion man army

China on the other hand still is struggling to build any form of infrastructure in order to produce goods

They have the single highest death rate of any country

are you on crack?

edit:

Its easy to say that China is a threat when you just look at their size, and sit in comfy countries enjoying having food. But if you visit China, and spend time in non tourist places, then you would grasp that the country isnt strong in any way, and its barely keeping itself alive.

I'm sure you could say that about America too. Trailer parks aren't exactly the pinnacles of the world.
And no one doubts life in china is a struggle. It's a struggle in all developing countries. However china has been growing at an unbelievable rate. And in no way is it restricted to just Shanghai Hong Kong and other metros. Rural china has changed a lot over the past 20 years.

I don't know why we need to fear china though. It's just a country and there isn't a need to create irrational fears - obviously world powers with conflicting ideologies will conflict. And argue, when was the last time you went to china? This is perhaps the first time I've thought your comments were completely retarded.

Edited by kiddX, 08 May 2010 - 06:12 AM.

[DragonX]

Okay, I'm going to be blunt here and tell you outright that I'm debating this topic next Tuesday, and haven't thought up of any arguments yet.
I'd prefer arguments against fearing the rise of China, because that's what I'm meant to be debating. But if you have an opinion, just voice it

So uhh, discuss.
I'll start first:

The West should fear the rise of China because as China's wealth, and the Chinese living conditions become better, the western lifestyle will have to become less awesome.

It'd be incorrect to say that China's living conditions have become better. The statement would only be true for a small percentage of the really wealthy people. The majority of people in China live in homes where washrooms have no plumbing, no air conditioning, etc. Further, the air quality is terrible.

While China has proved to be a definate powerhouse, they still have many challenges to face before they surpass the United States. Take their population for example. There are so many people that, in many areas, poeple are hired to direct traffic instead of signs. The number of available jobs pale in comparison to the number of students each year. In shanghai, they've opened up emmigration for students to study abroad to help. There is also the issue of inflation, as with all nations that "boom". You can also view the conflict between the traditional communist leaders and the younger generation leaders in China as a possible weakness. China's policies are starting to shift from the traditional communist policies as they start to allow emmigration and not all saleries are equal. The transition will be a bumpy road.

Counterarguments can also include the fact that since China is communist, they can move more quickly. For instance, to deal with population growth, they simply imposed that people can only have once child. this wouldn't work in canada.

Edited by Kendasala, 08 May 2010 - 07:26 AM.

[Sinwin]

It'd be incorrect to say that China's living conditions have become better. The statement would only be true for a small percentage of the really wealthy people. The majority of people in China live in homes where washrooms have no plumbing, no air conditioning, etc. Further, the air quality is terrible.

While China has proved to be a definate powerhouse, they still have many challenges to face before they surpass the United States. Take their population for example. There are so many people that, in many areas, poeple are hired to direct traffic instead of signs. The number of available jobs pale in comparison to the number of students each year. In shanghai, they've opened up emmigration for students to study abroad to help. There is also the issue of inflation, as with all nations that "boom". You can also view the conflict between the traditional communist leaders and the younger generation leaders in China as a possible weakness. China's policies are starting to shift from the traditional communist policies as they start to allow emmigration and not all saleries are equal. The transition will be a bumpy road.

Counterarguments can also include the fact that since China is communist, they can move more quickly. For instance, to deal with population growth, they simply imposed that people can only have once child. this wouldn't work in canada.

Yes China is now trying to fix population control because polygamy was popular in ancient times. With so many people, money just dont circulate well.

[DragonX]

Yes China is now trying to fix population control because polygamy was popular in ancient times. With so many people, money just dont circulate well.

Money circulation is one point. There's also the fact that there simply isn't enough resources (land, food, water, jobs, etc.)

[Sinwin]

Money circulation is one point. There's also the fact that there simply isn't enough resources (land, food, water, jobs, etc.)

Yep thats why they are cutting babies off and wishing for high death rates.

[generalgsus]

Yep thats why they are cutting babies off and wishing for high death rates.

Wouldn't their rising economy eventually take care of this? As long as they *somewhat* regulate their population size, and their rate of economic growth continues to go up, they will probably make it, no?

[Ambition]

Yep thats why they are cutting babies off and wishing for high death rates.

Sigh, this is why the debate section of this forum sucks.

[Sinwin]

Wouldn't their rising economy eventually take care of this? As long as they *somewhat* regulate their population size, and their rate of economic growth continues to go up, they will probably make it, no?

Well thats why they do birth control.

[DragonX]

Wouldn't their rising economy eventually take care of this? As long as they *somewhat* regulate their population size, and their rate of economic growth continues to go up, they will probably make it, no?

Depends. There are arguements both ways.. for example: Their population ensures that they have enough workers in terms of labour. On the other hand, it also means that China would have to support that population in terms of resources.

[Ambition]

I wonder if Chinese forums discuss the United States like this.

"They are a global superpower that still has worldwide influence!"

"Yeah but you forget that their country is infested with rednecks!"