163 replies to this topic

[Nothingtown]

I really hope you don't feel too upset. There is a lot of conflict and humanity has a ways to go. Anyhow, I enjoyed your contributions

 

no I don't get upset over this type of stuff

 

I admit my first post may have been a bit too emotionally driven, but some of you were able to have a reasoned discussion, and changed my opinion on one aspect, while some just chose to spew negativity

[Magical]

no I don't get upset over this type of stuff

 

I admit my first post may have been a bit too emotionally driven, but some of you were able to have a reasoned discussion, and changed my opinion on one aspect, while some just chose to spew negativity

 

Good to know As humans our imperfect inclinations are to my overly emotionally reactive.

[Galadriel]

@Nothingtown, I am gay. I thought you would be able to recognise a joke and receive it as such.

[Magical]

Really? @Galadriel I didn't know that. But yeah, it's tricky to joke around such subject matter with immensely heavy gravity and not get meanings confused.

Edited by Magical, 26 May 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Nothingtown]

@Nothingtown, I am gay. I thought you would be able to recognise a joke and receive it as such.

 

I apologize, as our interactions have not been very joke-like

 

I guess I've never really viewed being gay as a minority, I guess because I feel it shouldn't be viewed as such

but I hope you understand what I would mean about non-visible minority, jews still suffer in ways that other people don't always see, as im sure gay people do as well

I wouldn't even begin to know what types of issues gay people have to deal with on a daily basis...outside of gay marriage which seems to be the big issue

[Galadriel]

I apologize, as our interactions have not been very joke-like

 

I guess I've never really viewed being gay as a minority, I guess because I feel it shouldn't be viewed as such

but I hope you understand what I would mean about non-visible minority, jews still suffer in ways that other people don't always see, as im sure gay people do as well

I wouldn't even begin to know what types of issues gay people have to deal with on a daily basis...outside of gay marriage which seems to be the big issue

 

Without wanting to turn this into a 'struggle of le gayz' thread, I hope you can relook at the thread knowing that my intention was genuine and not simply to rile everyone up.

[Nothingtown]

Without wanting to turn this into a 'struggle of le gayz' thread, I hope you can relook at the thread knowing that my intention was genuine and not simply to rile everyone up.

 

I do, in honesty

 

 

even in simple discussion threads...emotions play into the responses, and that's what leads people to take offence to things versus not taking offence

Edited by Nothingtown, 26 May 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[stretch]

As somebody who is ethnically but not culturally Jewish, I seriously think people underestimate the utterly massive amount of anti-semitism left in this world -- yeah, looking at OP. It's a little difficult to just "move past it" and "suck it up" when the problem still goddamn exists. America has its bad moments, Europe is of course a burgeoning hellhole of racism at times, so. The point is that symbols and icons are still being used to convey the idea of anti-semetic thought and are not just a byproduct of history, and should be acknowledged as such and whenever used should be used sensitively.

 

Also, man, if you're a non-Hindi person creating reversed Hindi swastikas that's a little gross, sorry. That is such a "white person overstepping their bounds" problem, I've rarely seen anyone throw a fuss whenever the actual ethnic groups use those swastikas. Not to mention that they should look completely different, whatever.

[Magical]

Naw! Such good Codexians!!

[Frizzle]

I think, that when they're genuine, then yes. Doesn't matter how you feel about them. You may not agree, you may even hate someone else's view, but the decency of humanity is to respect your fellow man (which 99% fall short of, because everyone thinks their opinion IS right).

That's tolerance, not respect.

As somebody who is ethnically but not culturally Jewish, I seriously think people underestimate the utterly massive amount of anti-semitism left in this world -- yeah, looking at OP. It's a little difficult to just "move past it" and "suck it up" when the problem still goddamn exists. America has its bad moments, Europe is of course a burgeoning hellhole of racism at times, so. The point is that symbols and icons are still being used to convey the idea of anti-semetic thought and are not just a byproduct of history, and should be acknowledged as such and whenever used should be used sensitively.

Who has used the terms, moved past it and suck it up?

But yes, racism still exists and is bad, good for you for recognising that.

[Tetiel]

I encourage everybody to at least glance through the wikipedia article on the subject just to have an idea of just how many cultures have used the symbol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Speaking from an artist's standpoint, it's actually a very beautiful shape, a straight-edged version of a spiral sun. I can see why so many cultures have used it. I can also see why it is still used today in many cultures.

 

Yet I also sympathize. Understand that this is not just a Jewish issue. Hitler killed so many more groups of people than that. Romanians, Slavic, Polish, Homosexuals, Disabled, those of non-european descent, political enemies, even Freemasons! You also don't need to be part of that group to be sensitive to it. Because of the horrible, horrible persecution which happened and the aftershocks of it that still exist, in Western culture, we still associate that symbol with the political movement. When we see it, do we think of Nazis or do we think of well-being? I, personally, think of Nazis. I can't speak for the rest of you. In the case of the jewelry shop, I'm sure they have great intent. I'm sure they're not selling to Nazis, but instead to new-age folk (I highly doubt to Hindus/Buddhists/Tantrists, but I may be wrong).

 

In order to understand those reactions, you need to look at why they're "oversensitive." Are there militant groups out there right now that are actively anti-Jewish and use the swastika as a political symbol? Yes. Are there groups out there right now that make accusations of Zionism and have in fact threatened war with an entire group of those of Jewish descent? Yes. It's absolutely understandable to me that they would be shocked and react very badly to seeing what they would automatically perceive as Nazi jewelry. If I walked into a store, that would be my automatic assumption as well. I'd then backtrack and try to figure out if this is actually Nazi or if it is the other connotation, but I'm not a Jew. I haven't been attacked for my genetics, nor do I have being starved, forced into labor, gassed, experimented on, nor vast discrimination in my recent family history. Keep in mind, please, that some people still have grandparents and great-grandparents that lived through that. They grew up with stories of the horror that faced their people. That very symbol provokes anxiety of a time which still echos today.

 

So, whether you think it's right or not that they're offended, please at least try to see their perspective. That's the only way you'll be able to have a productive conversation because I'm willing to bet the majority of them are sick of having their feelings dismissed. I don't care whether you think it's valid reasoning or not. You cannot ever change someone's beliefs when it comes to something like this without understanding why they believe what they do in the first place.

[Bone]

I encourage everybody to at least glance through the wikipedia article on the subject just to have an idea of just how many cultures have used the symbol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Speaking from an artist's standpoint, it's actually a very beautiful shape, a straight-edged version of a spiral sun. I can see why so many cultures have used it. I can also see why it is still used today in many cultures.

 

Yet I also sympathize. Understand that this is not just a Jewish issue. Hitler killed so many more groups of people than that. Romanians, Slavic, Polish, Homosexuals, Disabled, those of non-european descent, political enemies, even Freemasons! You also don't need to be part of that group to be sensitive to it. Because of the horrible, horrible persecution which happened and the aftershocks of it that still exist, in Western culture, we still associate that symbol with the political movement. When we see it, do we think of Nazis or do we think of well-being? I, personally, think of Nazis. I can't speak for the rest of you. In the case of the jewelry shop, I'm sure they have great intent. I'm sure they're not selling to Nazis, but instead to new-age folk (I highly doubt to Hindus/Buddhists/Tantrists, but I may be wrong).

 

In order to understand those reactions, you need to look at why they're "oversensitive." Are there militant groups out there right now that are actively anti-Jewish and use the swastika as a political symbol? Yes. Are there groups out there right now that make accusations of Zionism and have in fact threatened war with an entire group of those of Jewish descent? Yes. It's absolutely understandable to me that they would be shocked and react very badly to seeing what they would automatically perceive as Nazi jewelry. If I walked into a store, that would be my automatic assumption as well. I'd then backtrack and try to figure out if this is actually Nazi or if it is the other connotation, but I'm not a Jew. I haven't been attacked for my genetics, nor do I have being starved, forced into labor, gassed, experimented on, nor vast discrimination in my recent family history. Keep in mind, please, that some people still have grandparents and great-grandparents that lived through that. They grew up with stories of the horror that faced their people. That very symbol provokes anxiety of a time which still echos today.

 

So, whether you think it's right or not that they're offended, please at least try to see their perspective. That's the only way you'll be able to have a productive conversation because I'm willing to bet the majority of them are sick of having their feelings dismissed. I don't care whether you think it's valid reasoning or not. You cannot ever change someone's beliefs when it comes to something like this without understanding why they believe what they do in the first place.

 

I agree with everything you just said, but I wouldn't conflate opposition to Zionism and Neo-Nazism.

[Frizzle]

So, whether you think it's right or not that they're offended, please at least try to see their perspective. That's the only way you'll be able to have a productive conversation because I'm willing to bet the majority of them are sick of having their feelings dismissed. I don't care whether you think it's valid reasoning or not. You cannot ever change someone's beliefs when it comes to something like this without understanding why they believe what they do in the first place.

If irony were sugar, I'd be in a diabetic coma.

[HiMyNameIsNick]

Dat title.

"Calling all Jews" will be my next album name, for sure.

Edited by WillDearborn, 26 May 2014 - 04:25 PM.

[Drasnia]

I'm personally of the opinion that if swastikas are truly being used in a way which has no correlation with the Nazi regime that it's generally acceptable. However, specifically drawing attention to it only to backpedal and swear it's a symbol of peace is at the very least insensitive if not inflammatory. I feel like any tragedy of such magnitude deserves special consideration. Even if I considered something to be an oversensitive reaction I would try to make allowances. On the other hand, walking into an established temple and finding those swastikas offensive is every bit as much an offense to the Hindu and Buddhist cultures.

As for the conversation with Hitler, I am less concerned with Hitler as the atrocity he was and more concerned with the potential impact that an insight into his thought processes would have. He was undeniably charismatic, cunning, and calculated, just as much as he was destructive. You could learn plenty from him, but is that the kind of knowledge that would better humanity or worsen it? I'm of the opinion that more harm would come from that conversation than good.

[Magical]

That's tolerance, not respect.

 

They're interrelated, unless there has been some semantic shift while I've been asleep

[luvsmyncis]

If you want to go and buy a hindu belly ring with a swastika on it (which would look great on you by the way)

I agree.

[Tetiel]

If irony were sugar, I'd be in a diabetic coma.

Assuming I'm thinking what you're thinking, Pinky, it takes two. The better man will be the first.

[Dazz]

The chinese i go to always has a swastika up behind the counter, they've never had any problems with it so i guess people round here are at least educated on that subject.

 

Anyways every year i go to this war and peace revival show, they bring the biggest collection of military vehicles, guns you can buy, russian's getting drunk, and they'll put on a show demonstrating how soldiers would fight a long time ago. But there's always another side to it that if it's your first time going you might find it a bit weird, but there will be people dressed up in full nazi outfits (even the black leather coats which look amazing) just casually walking around the stalls. There's also a lot of stalls selling old nazi daggers, clothes, flags, artifacts...etc. Obviously since it's a war show it's accepted tho, just look at this dude chilling.

 

Spoiler

[luvsmyncis]

just look at this dude chilling.

My first instinct is to hide my nose.

[Magical]

The chinese i go to always has a swastika up behind the counter, they've never had any problems with it so i guess people round here are at least educated on that subject.

 

Anyways every year i go to this war and peace revival show, they bring the biggest collection of military vehicles, guns you can buy, russian's getting drunk, and they'll put on a show demonstrating how soldiers would fight a long time ago. But there's always another side to it that if it's your first time going you might find it a bit weird, but there will be people dressed up in full nazi outfits (even the black leather coats which look amazing) just casually walking around the stalls. There's also a lot of stalls selling old nazi daggers, clothes, flags, artifacts...etc. Obviously since it's a war show it's accepted tho, just look at this dude chilling.

 

Spoiler

 

As long as it's taken seriously, then I personally don't have a problem with something like this.

[Frizzle]

They're interrelated, unless there has been some semantic shift while I've been asleep

Not even close.

[Drasnia]

Not even close.

Would you mind expanding on this? I don't see many situations in which tolerance does not involve some degree of respect and vice versa; perhaps we're defining those terms differently?

[Frizzle]

tolerance

ˈtɒl(ə)r(ə)ns/

noun

 

1. 1.

   the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with.

   "the tolerance of corruption"

   synonyms: forbearance, toleration, sufferance, liberality, open-mindedness, lack of prejudice, lack of bias, broad-mindedness, liberalism; More

    

    

      
2. 2.

   the capacity to endure continued subjection to something such as a drug or environmental conditions without adverse reaction.

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

   respect

   rɪˈspɛkt/

   noun

    

   1. 1.

      a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

      "the director had a lot of respect for Douglas as an actor"

      synonyms: esteem, regard, high regard, high opinion, acclaim, admiration,approbation, approval, appreciation, estimation, favour, popularity,recognition, veneration, awe, reverence, deference, honour, praise,homage More

       

         

      •  

         
      •  

         
      •  

         

         

         
   2. 2.

      due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others.

      "young people's lack of respect for their parents"

      synonyms: due regard, consideration, thoughtfulness, attentiveness, politeness,courtesy, civility, deference More

       

         
   3.  

       

       

       

       

   verb

    

   1. 1.

      admire (someone or something) deeply, as a result of their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

      "she was respected by everyone she worked with"

      synonyms: esteem, admire, think highly of, have a high opinion of, hold in high regard, hold in (high) esteem, think much of, approve of, appreciate,cherish, value, set (great) store by, prize, treasure, look up to, pay homage to, venerate, revere, reverence, adulate, worship, idolize, put on a pedestal, lionize, hero-worship, honour, applaud, praise, favourMore

       

         
   2. 2.

      have due regard for (someone's feelings, wishes, or rights).

      "I respected his views"

      synonyms: show consideration for, show regard for, take into consideration, take into account, make allowances for, take cognizance of, observe, pay heed/attention to, bear in mind, be mindful of, be heedful of, remember;More

       

       

      If you honestly can't see the huge difference between these basic terms, I have doubts about the stimulus of this conversation.

[Magical]

@ Frizzle

 

I personally dislike denotations, but that's beside the point.

 

the capacity to endure continued subjection to something such as a drug or environmental conditions without adverse reaction.

 

You cannot endure without some form of respect. If not, then you wouldn't tolerate it.

 

due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others.

 

Due regard indeed. You cannot regard anything without respect. I'm trying to be as simple as possible here, as the concept of linguistics is often reverted to straight-line textbooks, which are highly overstated and fail to comprehend the large field of pragmatics.

 

Additionally, a large majority of our lexicon is vaguely based upon denotations. Connotations, strong or weak, have a considerable impact upon the vernacular - no matter which one!

 

In such a situation, definitions 2.2 are applicable.